Former Jordanian Prime Minister and former Vice President of the ICJ replied: Will Netanyahu be tried at the ICC?

Awn Shawkat al-Khasawneh, former Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Jordon Hashemite and former Vice President of International Court of Justice (ICJ) spoke to Harici. 5 states have applied to the ICC for Netanyahu’s prosecution, Al-Khasawneh said, adding that due to the structure of the international community, “it is difficult to enforce the decisions”.

Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh, who served as Prime Minister of Jordan in 2011-2012, has also been a member of the International Court of Justice since 2000 and served as its Vice-President for a period prior to his premiership.

A Jordanian international lawyer, statesman and diplomat Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh has served as Chief of the Royal Hashemite Court, as well as on the United Nations International Law Commission and the Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities. Al-Khasawneh publishes and lectures on various international law topics at leading universities around the world.

Israel’s indiscriminate attacks on civilians in Gaza, launched on October 7 in response to a Hamas raid, have lasted more than two months and killed more than 18,000 people, including at least 8,000 children and 6,000 women. The blockade and attacks against Gazan civilians have led to an outcry from the international community, with demands for Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to be tried by the International Criminal Court (ICC) for “war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity”.

Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh answered Esra Karahindiba’s questions about the steps that international institutions and the ICC can take and the role of regional countries in the conflict.

Israel’s forcing of Palestinians to migrate from the Gaza Strip directly threatens Jordan. King Abdullah clearly declared that Jordan does not want any Palestinian refugees. Are there any precautions taken by Jordan in this regard? Or will Jordan open its doors? Can the United States persuade Jordan to reach an agreement on this issue?

Well, first of all let me see that from Jordanian-Israeli treaty of peace. There is an article in the preamble to the treaty which say the two states are obliged not to make any forceful population transfers. If that should happen it would amount the breach of the treaty. As far as what Jordon would do in this eventuality, I really don’t know and nobody knows. We just expressed the hope that it doesn’t come to that and that if this should happen, – I am a former judge so, I will not pass judgements- possibly this would be war crime and a crime against humanity. This has been reflected in a number of international agreements’ texts.

As you just talked about judgements, there have been some calls from leaders primarily President Erdoğan that Netanyahu should be judged in International Criminal Court (ICC) for his war crimes. Do you think international law authorities can take any steps against Netanyahu?

There are already decisions by five states have applied to the ICC for to bring Israeli officials including Prime Minister Netanyahu before justice.* But what will happen, again, is a question at the moment, it cannot be decided before the ICC because of it’s slowness in responding to those applications.

International community has no power or influence on Israel. Even if Netanyahu is being judged before ICC, do you think any serious outcomes can be reached?

It’s a sad fact that as things stand, the fact that this would be implemented assuming you have to start no matter how much we feel about it that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Of course, the evidence suggests that there is a plausible case but to go beyond that assuming that it is indicted, in many cases this has not been out into action because of the nature of the international community where for states, sometimes even sometimes poor and friendly states, it has been difficult to enforce those judgements. In fact, here it means, if you are guilty of war crime, it is a stigma that is with you and things might change in the future. I would hate to think that only when there is a defeated country that international tribunal like Nuremberg tribunals is possible. One of the reasons why these bodies were created was to prevent that from being the only case justice of the victor as it was called.

You were the legal advisor to Jordan’s team that negotiated the 1994 peace agreement with Israel. Jordan became the second Arab country after Egypt to officially recognize Israel. When we look at the massacre in Gaza today, how do you evaluate the normalization of Arab countries with Israel at this point? Do Arab countries’ efforts to normalize with Israel have a role in Israel committing such a massacre in front of the eyes of the whole world? Will the normalization process with Israel continue after the Gaza war?

Well, the things have changed so much. The things have changed fundamentally since the signing of the peace treaty between Jordan and Israel. For one thing, I don’t want to reduce this to personalities but there were two important persons at that time. On the hand hand, the late King Huseyin** and on the hand the late Izak Rabin. There were great expectations. This would be the beginning of a peace that would encompass the whole of the Middle East. I think the strategic mistake that was made by us, by the Arabs was not to insist on stopping the settlement policies of Israel in the West Bank. And now, when we look back, first of all, Rabin was killed. It is a question, it is on the record that his wife Liya said that the present leader of Israel has the blood of her husband in his hands.

So, nothing of these expectations have taken place. Instead, since the passing away of King Huseyin and Rabin, the only part of the treaty that has been put in to practice was normalization. That has always been understood that normalization would go hand in hand with the realization of the substantive rights of the Palestinian people. Israel has facilitated as not really fulfilled their part of the bargain in good faith in my opinion. I think this is a very sad thing. Because as somebody who negotiated that treaty, it was at that time our hope that Arabs and Jews would live together. Muslims and Jews would live together. Because this is our history. I’d not mean for Israel, I’d mean a good one including for example under the Ottoman Empire. You don’t forget where the Jews were expelled from the Spain after the so-called Reconquista***, they thought refuge in Palestine, in Türkiye and in other parts of the Ottoman Empire Jewish communities existed throughout the Muslim world. That was one of the reasons that I could justify to myself entering into the team that negotiate the peace treaty with Israel.

Of course, the treaty was a compromise. If we are going to look from the point of view of pure justice, there was no reason to give up the Palestinian claims. But we thought sometimes justice and peace are in contradiction with each other. This would bring an end to the sufferings of the peoples of the Middle East. Unfortunately, it was proven not to be the case. And this is what makes the present situation not only dangerous and regrettable from the point of view of the enormous loss of the life. Disproportionate and horrible three months… Like wars of the barbarians in the Middle Ages where you deny civilian population, basic necessities like water and bed. And you kill children indiscriminately in addition to that, it really will have set the Middle East on a path of war that may yet may come back to Israel to get hunted. They may come very well to regret that course in the first place.

What about post-Gaza war?

There are many plans about who is going to rule Gaza after the war. Israelis are really planning, -black-comedy sort of-, preparing plans about who is going to rule Gaza. Ultimately it is the people of Gaza who will decide that. And by the lack of it, it seems that Hamas, seen by them and by many people in the world not as a terrorist group but as a national liberation organization will win probably again if there is a free election. Many people say that the election that took place in Gaza, was the only democratically held election in the Middle East. So, I mean it is amazing when the West is saying democracy and they want to spread democracy; Hillary Clinton saying this and that, but when the election produces people whom they are not liking, all of that disappears in one minute.

Why are Arab and Muslim countries today not taking steps beyond condemnation to deter Israel? In the past, Arabs fought against Israel several times. But today even the hardest strugglers of Israel content themselves with condemnation. Does the leadership of these countries no longer consider the Palestinian question to be in the interests of their countries?

It’s a sad comment at least for the Arabic part of the Islamic world. There is a disarray in that camp. This is a not a product of few months ago. It has been a long process with the destruction of Iraq, of Syria, of economic problems of Egypt, the destruction of Libya, so on and so forth. Unfortunately, this has produced this result.

But I can assure you that no matter how the rulers of the Arab countries do think, the question of Palestine is in the heart of everyone who is living in the Arab world. This is what happened exactly in the spontaneous reaction to what happened on October 7^th. Because it is felt and it is felt by many decent people that this was an intolerable situation that they had been put under for too long and many people in this situation are bound to try to break out. I condole in any way the killing of civilians regardless of who they are. But I think it did not come out from nothing. This was part of a context, the context of humiliation, of putting people in what really amounted for all intents and purposes as a concentration camp, not this is the same characteristics of the ones under Nazism but equally bad and objectionable.

US bases in Syria and Iraq are frequently attacked. It is said that the Pentagon may concentrate its forces more on its bases in Jordan and the UAE. How do you take it?

There are American bases in the Middle East, almost in all countries in the Middle East. It is said that there are no less than ten American bases in Red Sea. So, in a sense we live in an undeclared American Empire of the world. How they are going to shift is really beyond my knowledge.

While the Ukraine and Gaza wars lead to a decrease in the influence of the USA in the Middle East, China and the countries of the global south are stepping forward to be mediators in the Gaza conflict. Keeping in mind that the leaders of Arab countries first visited China in this process, do you think the countries of the global south, especially China, can play a role in finding a solution in Gaza?

I have my strong doubts. I have my strong doubts about the role of China and even Russia. All I can say is the wiser people are those who can best interpret their times. And we are passing through a period when this dominance of the West is being challenged. And one of the lessons of the history, whenever a dominant group whether it is inside a certain country or internationally, feel that they are in priviliged position is about to undermined, that is the time when they resort to irrational and sometimes even criminal acts. We will at a time of fundamental changes, in a world that was unipolar, a world where there are emerging polarities probably not on the same strength, it is bound to be a difficult birth and it is bound to be a bloody birth.

*According to the statement made by the ICC on November 17, 5 member countries of the court; South Africa, Bolivia, Bangladesh, the Union of Comoros and Djibouti demanded an investigation into Israel’s attacks on the Gaza Strip. (AA)

** King Hussein bin Talal (1935-1999) is known to be the father of modern Jordan. In 1991, King Hussein played a pivotal role in convening the Madrid Peace Conference, and providing an “umbrella” for Palestinians to negotiate their future as part of a joint Jordanian-Palestinian delegation. (http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/biography.html)

*** The kingdom of Granada falls to the Christian forces of King Ferdinand V and Queen Isabella I in 1238, and the Moors lose their last foothold in Spain. (https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/reconquest-of-spain)