Elmar Brok, former president of the European Parliament’s foreign affairs committee, told Harici: “If Russia leaves Ukraine, Europe must cooperate. If Russia falls into China’s hands, it will become China’s junior partner. That would be a catastrophe for the European order”.
German politician Elmar Brok is a member of the European People’s Party (EPP). He is the longest-serving MEP in Brussels and has held many leading positions in German and European politics since 1980. He has also chaired the European Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee (AFET) and has frequently travelled to conflict zones as part of the EU’s foreign policy.
Elmar Brok answered our questions about European and German policy on the conflicts in Gaza and Ukraine.
Do you think European united front for Ukraine is cracking for a while? On the one hand, Germany does not want to involve the Ukrainian war militarily, and on the other hand, France and some Eastern European countries do not rule out boots-on-the-ground. Some cracks are true regarding the financial aid. Do you think that Ukraine can secure the EU aid for good?
I think the aid for Ukraine is safe, is just decided again in the European Council and in the European Parliament. Also, the Germany is safe. Germany is the country with the second most weapon delivery to Ukraine after United States. But I believe they should send more. For example, this cruise missile Taurus which gives the chance for the Ukrainians to destroy the logistics of the Russians, also outside the immediate Ukrainian borders. And that is very helpful. French President Emmanuel Macron was misunderstood. He said that it could be for technical help soldiers on the ground; not as fighting soldiers. I think everyone agrees in the European Union that the NATO countries cannot go as fighting forces into that war, because that means that it’s the NATO case where everyone will be involved from Türkiye to Britain. And that was also not meant, that was misunderstood. But I believe Europe should do more. Many countries have not yet understood that the Ukrainians fight for our own freedom. Putin has said he wants to recover the old Tsarist Empire which includes Poland. And we do not like that he goes forward. He will when we make our peace deal or ceasefire, stop there for a moment, for three years, four years to recover and then he continues. It is clearly said what his goals are and we should look to that. And he means it seriously.
But Russia also claims that there was a spoken agreement years ago that NATO shouldn’t come close to Russian borders but they didn’t keep their promise. So, this is, on the other hand, their explanation of defending their own territory.
There is a Minsk agreement which stopped the war in 2014 but Putin never meant it seriously to make a a peace forever out of that despite all the negotiations that took place until he took the next advantage that was 2022 to continue that war. Minsk is a proof that Putin does not want a permanent peace in Ukraine. He says clearly Ukrainians have no own identity, it’s Russian. He said in his speech some days ago again that he says if Europeans would go to Ukraine it means, it goes to Russian soil. This understanding is not acceptable. You cannot declare the soil of an independent sovereign country as his own.
Is a complete breakdown of Russia-Europe relations possible? Do you see the possibility of a recovery in relations after the war in Ukraine? What is the projection for Europe and Russia?
We have to try that but Putin must give in to international law, leave Ukraine. But for sure, then when it’s the case, Russia and Europe should cooperate. If Russia becomes into Chinese hands, there would be, then, junior partner of China. That would be a disaster for Europe’s order. It is also good to have Ukrainian as an ally especially because all the raw materials are there. The common interest is very strong but Putin’s war and his fantasies by violating international law to recover the old Tsarist Empire is just historically wrong and looks only backwards and not into the future. He violates Russian interests.
Given the fact that Europe is also dependent on Russia regarding the energy, gas and grain, do you think, in the coming few years, Europe will be on them at one point and have to stop militarily aiding Ukraine?
No, to keep an important country independent is our protection. And to stick to international law on the sovereignty of nations, it’s all protection for permanent law as we had in the last 70 years. We should not leave that way to give in to a new war manga. Putin is in that way like Hitler or others have done that. We want to in Europe to be in a situation that we never fall back in this imperialist time of where the big countries of Europe decide who is independent or not independent.
But what you say doesn’t go along with Germany’s politics regarding Israel. I mean Germany is the second weapon provider to Israel with almost %25 overall procurements after the US. Talking about international law, also in violation of international law, you should also talk about Gaza.
Look, first of all, we have a certain responsibility. It is also the violation of international law; the slaughtering of Israelis by Hamas on October 7th.
But did the things start at o October 7th? What is happening since 1948?
Hamas destroyed the responsibility of the Palestinian Authority in 2007. There are by coup on power.
They were elected in 2006. There were international observers.
No, the overall won Palestinian Authority. Hamas is not Palestine. Hamas is a terrorist organization. We never support a terrorist organization.
Dozens of thousands of civilians are killed and majority of them are children. Can you face this? Germany is still supporting Israel.
Israel left Gaza in 2005. And then since then, Hamas made war. The question is that they shoot missiles from Gaza every day in the last 15 years to the soil of Israel. Would you like that that from the European side of Istanbul, every day missiles would be shot on the Asian side of Istanbul? That is the daily case. They have to stop that. They should give all the power back to the Palestinian Authority.
But that’s not the fact. We have more than 30,000 civilians dead now. So, you say that’s Israel’s right to do it.
But 15 years before every day I was twice in that situation as I saw Hamas rockets coming to me.
Israel doesn’t fight against Hamas only, they fight against all civilians.
No, they fight against Hamas and these are civilian victims. It’s another question whether this method of Israel is a good one. This can be discussed but they have a right to defend themselves, this must be respected. And if this would be respected and if it would said that what Hamas did to the civilians and killed them like beasts, then we can talk.
Then, how do you explain the increase of illegal settlements every day and there’s no Palestine will be left in near future?
Not in Gaza. In Gaza is no Israeli settlement since 2005, now invaded but there are not any settlements. Israel left the settlements.
But Palestine issue continues.
That’s you divide Hamas and Gaza and the West Bank. And about the West Bank, I agree with you. I am against these Israeli settlements and I have told them. I was in September in Israel and have said it again the leading persons of the country. I said “leave, do not continue the settlement policy, I believe that it’s wrong and then I believe in the two-state solution”.
When there is an attack against Israel, you say that Israel has right to defend itself.
We Germans killed 7 million Jews. 7 million Jews my country killed in the Holocaust… This creates moral responsibility. Sorry for that. Germany is in a special situation.
While Israel is increasing illegal settlements which is against international law, what did you do against Israel? Did Palestine not have any right to defend itself? No, you did not. Instead, you armed Israel against Palestinians.
Every day, I was, in the past, even part of the negotiations. I was a messenger between Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Mahmud Abbas and I know Abbas very well. I worked all my life against the settlements. We have given Israel submarines but submarines are not active in Gaza.
But you provide weapons to Israel in general.
No, Israel gives more weapons to Germany than Germany gives to Israel. And Israel has a right to defend themselves, whether they do it now in a proper way, that is another story. I believe it could be done in another way. But to destroy Hamas after the Hamas made such the things the third or fourth time, this must be the right of self-defense, whether the self-defense is used in an acceptable way, that’s another story we can debate.
Let’s go back to Europe’s issues. Let’s go back to Germany. Chancellor Olaf Scholz described the Ukrainian War as a Zeitenwende (turning point). Germany has raised its defense expenditures. But the huge defense spending is drawing criticism at home and abroad. What do you think?
Look, Germany Army was underfinanced especially because of the Socialist never wanted it. That’s really exciting when the Socialists who are now in government, want to increase and have increased now the expenditure for that to make us able to defend our ourselves and do our job within NATO. That is a good development but I still believe it’s not enough. Yhere have to be done more. After 1990, we in Europe believed as in the rest of the world that is peace forever. We were wrong and all our strategy were built up was wrong because Europe meant we have to never again defend our country in a classical war. And we have seen now and that it was based on the principles of sovereignty of nations and non-violation of borders of a country, which Russia, then Soviet Union has undersigned several times. But Putin has to destroy this principle and we are not prepared for that, and we prepare ourselves for that.
Let’s talk about the economy. The German economy is said to be deindustrializing. Do you agree? Is there such a threat to the German economy?
We’re still the third biggest economy in the world and the biggest in Europe. We have, at the moment, a government, red green yellow government which is not able to deal with that. It’s not a good government. That happens from time to time after elections. And this has to be changed. We have to get rid of bureaucracy. We have to make things much more competitive but the basis is still there and I think it will happen in short time that this policy will be changed. And therefore, I’m not so pessimistic. This is not the end of Germany forever. That we have a shrinking population, is true. That is true for all European nations. And that’s the problem and therefore I’m in favor of migration on a constructive migration.
But not Syrian migration right; Ukrainian is better. Would you accept that you have a double standard accepting migrants?
We have taken in hundreds of thousands Syrian migrants.
Türkiye have taken millions of them.
But Türkiye was paid by us.
Several times, President Erdoğan complained that the funds are not delivered.
No, I myself has talked the first time about that to President Erdoğan in 2015. I prepared a paper about that. I got brought a message from President Erdoğan to Chancellor Angela Merkel. And she reacted too late. She needed three quarter of a year to react to that. But, we want to have in qualified workforce from other countries. Syrians, for example, have very talented medical doctors, very good. And we have a lot of Syrian doctors in Germany and we are open for that. But we cannot take in, every year, a million migrants. Nobody can deal with that. Also, migrants which are not ready to be integrated for a moment are not suitable.
Instead, you wanted to pay Türkiye for dealing with that.
President Erdoğan made this proposal. It cannot be the world-unite in Germany; not from Africa, not from the Middle East; we cannot take all in. Then, we would have, every year, 3 million.
Did President actually offer this deal? Because, we have borders with Syria and Türkiye obligatorily opened the borders.
And therefore, we had to offer twice or three times the deal. It is a lot of money to help you with that. That was the deal on the compromise. Or do you want to have AFD (Alternative für Deutschland) and the right wing parties in power in Europe? Is that your choice? It would be not good for Türkiye. Turks are a lot in Germany. Turks are free to come. We have to see Turks positive. Turkish citizens played, now partly German citizens, played a very constructive role in Germany as did the Polish before. Germany was always developed in its economy by foreign workers. The beginning of the German strength in modern economics, in the beginning of last century on Polish. Poles built rural area. Later came the Italians and the Spaniards. And then in the 60’s came Turks. They are part of our society. It’s around 3 and a half million, 4 million Turks in Germany.
Talking about Türkiye, the EU membership is not in the agenda nowadays because there’s no hope for it. We don’t discuss it in Türkiye. We know that it’s not going to happen. Do you agree with this perspective that Turkish membership to EU will not happen ever and Türkiye is just being played by EU at the moment?
At the moment not, that has to do that Türkiye has to fulfill the Copenhagen criteria. We have a certain understanding about the political freedoms in this country, rule of law, and so on. But it’s not said yes and that is the point. What I believe is that, is the question we should do also to Ukraine and other countries, that first of all the Customs Union with Türkiye has to be modernized, which is very much in a common interest. Because many products, new products are not by the agreement. Therefore, it’s very much important, it’s very much in the economic interest. I have discussed other things also with Turkish leaders in the past. We should do first develop in a way as we have done it in the European economic area, where countries that were, especially the countries in the old EFTA (European Free Trade Association). With them, we met European Economic Area that they are fully members of the internal market of the European Union as we have it now with Norway and Iceland. But Sweden, Finland and Austria were also part of that but from that basis they made later the negotiation for full membership. The Norwegian decided not to do that because they wanted to be in that position as they are now. Here in that way to bring us closer together and very practical would be also a way in a step-by-step solution between European Union in Türkiye.
Let me ask my last question. There has been lots of debate inside the German coalition government regarding fiscal balance, debt brake, the Green Deal, and now, farmers’ protests are shaking the whole Europe. The FDP has signaled that it may leave the coalition and join forces with the main opposition CDU/CSU. Do you think the so-called traffic light coalition is obsolete now?
When I see the result of this coalition that it’s obsolete, but I do not know whether they will break up. It would be better for Germany if they would break up we had new elections. We have to see that the goal they had to combine competitiveness is fighting climate change is the right goal. But there were practically not able to do to deal with that. When they want to give not big business money but cut it with the farmers, it’s the wrong way. The farmers should not finance big business and therefore we have here and practical disagreement how to do that. It’s partly not a way for the goals it’s a question of the method how to achieve the goals. And here, the present government is a total disaster.
