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Arnold Sch\u00f6lzel<\/p><\/div>\n
Where does the AfD fit into this picture, and what position does it hold? This party is polling at 30 percent\u2014could you explain how the AfD positions itself regarding the war and in relation to German big business?<\/b><\/p>\n
I think this is also an expression of the internal contradictions within German big business. They are not in agreement on policies regarding the war and relations with Russia, and fortunately, nothing has been decided yet. As I said, there is an aggressive faction; but alongside that, of course, there is also a sufficient number of companies and segments of capital that favor a reasonable policy toward Russia\u2014one that seeks cooperation. There were many German companies at the recent International Economic Forum in St. Petersburg. Gerhard Schr\u00f6der has now taken on this role at Globus. Other major German companies are also still operating in Russia. For example, Metro and the automakers haven\u2019t shut all their doors. At least they haven\u2019t completely abandoned their factories.<\/p>\n
As for the AfD, in my view, it serves as a political reserve in the broader political landscape. In other words, I believe that in a situation where the economic crisis may be deepening and a political crisis is unfolding in the Federal Republic, the AfD acts as a \u201ctransatlantic right-wing\u201d reserve\u2014particularly, of course, to support the CDU.<\/p>\n
Magdeburg [the capital of the state of Saxony-Anhalt] is perhaps a laboratory where such a scenario is being tested. There are also influential forces that have finally forced Friedrich Merz to tear down this so-called \u201cfirewall\u201d (Brandmauer<\/i>) against the AfD.<\/p>\n
So far, it has been said that this is merely a rumor, but it is reported, for example, that Axel Springer CEO Mathias D\u00f6pfner has twice asked Merz to pursue a more cooperative policy toward the AfD. This is just a rumor, but it has never actually been denied either.<\/p>\n
And D\u00f6pfner has very good relationships with Peter Thiel and Elon Musk.<\/b><\/p>\n
He recently presented Peter Thiel with the Axel Springer Award and had a long conversation with him. And the truly interesting thing here\u2014which reinforces the argument that Sevim Da\u011fdelen and I have made regarding the AfD\u2019s ties to the transatlantic right\u2014 \u2014is Peter Thiel\u2019s remarks, his lengthy conversation with Matthias D\u00f6pfner at the award ceremony, and now his connections with various figures from U.S. big business. For example, Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan Chase\u2014the largest bank in the U.S.\u2014says that what Trump is doing here is threatening our allies, presenting the withdrawal of NATO from Western Europe not as an actual policy but as a threat… Dimon said this is going in the wrong direction, that it\u2019s the wrong policy, and that we need to \u201cwin back the old West.\u201d This means reestablishing sensible cooperation not only with Western Europe but also with Japan, the Philippines, and South Korea\u2014in other words, rebuilding the old West. He didn\u2019t say what this means politically in terms of China policy, but I\u2019m skeptical that it will be a good thing. Therefore, this will likely be more in line with the Democrats\u2019 traditional policy: pursuing a more liberal stance domestically compared to Trump and the entire MAGA movement, but adopting a tougher stance abroad toward China and Russia.<\/p>\n
And to me, it makes a lot of sense for them to ally with the AfD to reestablish the \u201cold West.\u201d For U.S. capital, this is probably more appealing than the U.S.\u2019s confrontational policy toward Western Europe. But all of this is in such flux right now that it\u2019s hard to say what kind of realistic policy will emerge from it. I have to admit that. In other words, things are at a stage where it\u2019s difficult to say where they\u2019re really headed. I\u2019ll say it again: interests in Germany\u2014within German big business\u2014appear to be divided. There are at least two: an aggressive variant and a cooperative variant. The AfD likely serves both of them\u2014it makes no difference to them. They are, as we might say, a \u201creserve force\u201d\u2014a recreational reserve for big politics. Whether this will actually materialize is another matter, depending on the CDU\u2019s election results. There, Friedrich Merz is consistently dragging down the CDU\u2019s vote share; so much so that the necessity of bringing the AfD on board is increasing rather than decreasing.<\/p>\n
Of course, decisions are primarily made at the economic level, and these are later reflected in politics\u2014including policy toward Russia and China. But as I said, it\u2019s very hard to say which faction will prevail there.<\/p>\n
Do you think the AfD will turn into a new CDU\u2014or a \u201cCDU 2.0\u201d\u2014once it grows large enough?<\/b><\/p>\n
Absolutely. The AfD was a breakaway from the CDU. It was founded by CDU members. In East Germany\u2014for example, in Saxony\u2014its leadership consists primarily of former CDU members who came of age under Kurt Biedenkopf\u2019s leadership in the 1990s. The AfD, which is particularly strong in Saxony, is, in my view, a product of the CDU.<\/p>\n
Of course, it could always return. A shift toward radicalization could also occur; the AfD has brought together elements that were banned in the old CDU of the Federal Republic\u2014namely, anti-Semites, racists, and supporters of the U.S. Open fascists are welcomed with open arms in the AfD. My view is this: The AfD is not a fascist party, but it is a party for fascists. Of course, radicalization could also occur in this context.<\/p>\n
This also depends on developments within the EU. Take Italy, for example\u2014things are going a bit differently there than expected; that is, there is no radicalization under Meloni. But if Marine Le Pen becomes president in France next year, we will likely have to reassess where things are headed here in Germany as well. Right now, so many things are up in the air.<\/p>\n
Does the same apply to Die Linke (The Left)? Because I think I read an article in your newspaper, *Junge Welt*, suggesting that Die Linke is increasingly becoming the party of the urban, trendy crowd\u2014in other words, sort of like a new SPD. Is that true?<\/b><\/p>\n
Yes. Even though it won the election in Berlin, it\u2019s constantly losing ground, especially in East Germany. Up until 10 years ago, its voter base across all of East Germany was around 20 percent; now it\u2019s mostly below 10 percent, and here in Berlin there\u2019s a notable exception where the vote largely comes from the immigrant population\u2014or people of immigrant origin. Elif Eralp, the lead candidate, played a major role in this.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s also worth noting that there were 2.5 million eligible voters in Berlin, and because voting was permitted for the first time starting at age 16, there were a large number of young people. However, there was also a record number of people\u20141.4 million\u2014who have lived in Berlin for years but lack the right to vote. These are, of course\u2014I think nearly 1 million of them\u2014people without German passports, which had never been seen before.<\/p>\n
The Left\u2019s entire platform, in my opinion, is indeed a social democratic one. I think it will be very difficult for the Left to repeat this election victory. They won\u2019t be able to repeat this victory in future elections.<\/p>\n
However, mainstream parties like the CDU, SPD, and the Greens seem to be trying to normalize the AfD by portraying Die Linke in Berlin as anti-Semitic or something similar. Because I\u2019ve read some news articles or watched videos in publications like *Die Welt* where it\u2019s claimed that the AfD is already more \u201cnormal\u201d than Die Linke. Is it possible to use Die Linke to normalize the AfD?<\/b><\/p>\n
Yes. When the AfD won the election in Saxony-Anhalt, [CSU leader and Bavarian State Premier] Markus S\u00f6der said this was democracy. But when the Left Party won in Berlin, he said, \u201cWe\u2019ll cut off all the money we give them; we\u2019ll do this, we\u2019ll do that.\u201d I can say that for the CSU and Markus S\u00f6der, the question is also about how to deal with the AfD, and I think they\u2019ve already decided how to manage their policies regarding the AfD.<\/i><\/p>\n
But there\u2019s still a kind of division within the CDU regarding how to deal with the AfD. Because one part of the party wants to ban this party, while the other part says, \u201cNo, don\u2019t do that.\u201d Is it possible to ban this party?<\/b><\/p>\n
The \u201cC\u201d in the names of the Union parties stands for \u201cChristian.\u201d There are major Christian churches\u2014Catholics, Roman Catholics, and Lutherans\u2014and they are very powerful within the CDU\/CSU. And there are also Jews. Take Karin Prien, for example, the minister of youth and social affairs. Prien comes from a Jewish family, and I don\u2019t think there would be any cooperation between her and the AfD, for instance. So you\u2019re right, the CDU is also divided internally, and this will lead to major problems.<\/p>\n
You mentioned China, but there have been many debates in Germany recently that are critical of China. I think for the past few years, both German government officials and major sectors like the automotive industry have been taking a cautious stance toward China. For example, they didn\u2019t want any tariffs imposed on China. But recently, they\u2019ve changed their stance and adopted a harsh rhetoric similar to that used against Russia.<\/b><\/p>\n
No, the situation is more complex. Do you remember Annalena Baerbock, that famous foreign minister? She presented a China strategy, didn\u2019t she? In that strategy, China was defined as a \u201cpartner, competitor, and systemic adversary.\u201d The result was supposed to be \u201cdecoupling\u201d [economic separation].<\/p>\n
Looking at it today, I can say that this has failed. No one is talking about this China strategy anymore, and I think the strategy is only three years old. No one is talking about it anymore. Furthermore, \u201cdecoupling\u201d later evolved into a cautious\u2014very cautious\u2014process of \u201crisk reduction\u201d [derisking<\/i>]. These are the famous supply chain issues. In other words, you want to avoid putting all your eggs in one basket; you don\u2019t want to remain dependent on shipments from China in the event of a crisis.<\/p>\n
On the other hand, I visited China for the first time last year, and the Chinese press is writing things about German executives that are completely different from what you read here in the business section of the *Handelsblatt* or in the *S\u00fcddeutsche Zeitung*. German executives in China\u2014especially in the automotive sector\u2014are saying that we shouldn\u2019t just manufacture here; we actually need to conduct research and development activities here as well.<\/p>\n
BMW established its own research and development facility in China last year. The situation is the same for VW. The reasoning is this: They are, so to speak, at the forefront of the world\u2014at the forefront of global technology\u2014and if we aren\u2019t part of that, we\u2019ll miss out on opportunities in the global market.<\/p>\n
For German companies, the issues at stake are now entirely different and strategic\u2014not just in this sector, but in sectors like artificial intelligence as well. They\u2019re stating this quite clearly: Germany has fallen so far behind in certain technical fields that it can only keep up by collaborating with China.<\/p>\n
As for the tone in German politics\u2026 If I were in their shoes, I\u2019d be cautious. Politicians have become more cautious in their stance, but the German media has not. Even in the business newspapers here, you don\u2019t hear about what\u2019s really happening technologically in China.<\/p>\n
Of course, there are exceptions. Today\u2019s economic section of *faz* reports that China has almost caught up with Nvidia in the software sector. Even just a short time ago, it was being said that China lagged months, even years, behind Nvidia and major U.S. tech companies in the field of AI software. Today\u2019s *Faz* notes that the two are now very close and, above all, emphasizes that China\u2019s strategy is to make everything open-source. This means it\u2019s incredibly cheap and accessible to everyone. Consequently, *Faz* describes this, so to speak, as massive competition: The Germans will join this competition too; naturally, they\u2019ll gravitate toward what\u2019s cheaper, won\u2019t they?<\/p>\n
At the investment forum that began today (October 19) in Berlin, the Chancellor is expected to meet with Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang. In an interview he gave to the Bild<\/i> newspaper in London just before heading to Berlin, he said it broke his heart to see how far behind Germany has fallen in the technology sector. According to him, Germany (after all, they\u2019re always polite) has very talented people, but now they really need to get down to business.<\/p>\n
To be honest, I was in China merely as a sort of political tourist, but when I read about what\u2019s been happening in Germany, I learned this: an economic stagnation that\u2019s been ongoing since 2019. We\u2019ve been in a recession since 2019, and wages have been affected as well\u2014which, of course, is a major source of discontent among the public. This is precisely the ground on which the AfD has actually grown.<\/p>\n
The issue isn\u2019t just peace with Russia; first and foremost, of course, it\u2019s the loss of industry and blue-collar jobs. We\u2019re talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs; in the automotive electronics sector alone, 10,000 jobs are being lost every month right now. The problem is that there has been a decline in investment. Foreign investment in Germany has not yet returned to 2019 levels.<\/p>\n
That is precisely why we are organizing an investment summit like the one taking place here today. When I returned from China as a political tourist, I said, \u201cOne gets the impression\u2014perhaps a bit exaggerated and not entirely accurate\u2014that Germany resembles an industrial museum compared to China and what is on display there.\u201d<\/p>\n
This is a clear strategy, and the Federal Republic must confront it: I believe it is precisely this situation\u2014this weakness and decline\u2014that is the reason we are holding an investment conference here today. In other words, the aggressiveness in politics stems in part from this weakness. As we can see, we are losing ground, and that is a problem.<\/p>\n
In France and other European countries, many groups\u2014especially young people\u2014are taking to the streets, but there\u2019s no similar trend in Germany. For example, if we compare the number of participants at the peace rally we witnessed in Berlin three years ago with those at this year\u2019s events, there\u2019s a clear drop in attendance. What do you make of that?<\/b><\/p>\n
That\u2019s true. However, there has also been a \u201cSchool Strike\u201d ongoing in Germany for over a year now. In these protests, young people are mounting significant resistance against mandatory military service. Even though there isn\u2019t the same level of street activism as in France, the School Strikes appear to be quite significant for a country like Germany.<\/p>\n
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\u00b9 Roderich Kiesewetter: A CDU member of parliament and the party\u2019s foreign policy spokesperson. He is known for his hardline stance toward Russia. Claudia Major: A German expert on security and defense policy born in East Berlin. While she argues that striking Russia\u2019s interior regions is legitimate, her recent meeting with Chechen separatists also made headlines in Germany. (Editor\u2019s note)<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Following the Alternative for Germany (AfD)\u2019s major victory in the Saxony-Anhalt state elections, significant uncertainty regarding Germany\u2019s future has emerged. Subsequently, in Berlin, Die Linke (The Left) pulled off a major surprise by becoming the leading party, after which a massive counter-campaign began in the mainstream media and the political establishment. The future is uncertain, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":14,"featured_media":17086,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"ep_exclude_from_search":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[174],"tags":[1483,22712,3673,1901,2314,1576,842,2320,22711,3675,543,503,2630,2497,3272,683,18496,1886,1705,822,2527,159],"class_list":["post-17085","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interview","tag-afd","tag-alternative-fur-deutschland","tag-arnold-scholzel","tag-bundeswehr","tag-cdu","tag-die-linke","tag-france","tag-friedrich-merz","tag-german-capitalism","tag-german-imperialism","tag-germany","tag-headline","tag-junge-welt","tag-left-party","tag-militarization","tag-russia","tag-school-strike","tag-spd","tag-uk","tag-ukraine","tag-ukrainian-war","tag-usa"],"yoast_head":"\n