INTERVIEW
How does Israel use social media and technology for disinformation?
Published
on
Digitalization expert Associate Professor Marc Owen Jones spoke to Harici about how Israel has been using social media to manipulate and spread fake news during the Gaza war.
Marc Owen Jones is an associate professor of Middle East Studies at Hamad bin Khalifa University, where he lectures and researches on political repression and informational control strategies.
His work focuses on how social media has been used to spread disinformation and fake news in the Middle East, exposing the disinformation campaigns that accompanied Israel’s attacks on Gaza.
Dr. Jones answered our questions on the psychological warfare waged on social media on the Gaza war, the role of large corporations and the use of artificial intelligence algorithms in these campaigns.
Let’s start talking about your researches which you do on disinformation and misinformation. So, you say that Israeli attacks on Gaza have been accompanied by endemic disinformation and misinformation. Can you specify which methods and tools Israel use for that?
So, ever since October, the 7th, we’ve seen essentially a campaign of disinformation and misinformation by Israel. The purpose of the disinformation is primarily to demonize Hamas and make Hamas’s attacks seem as brutal as possible in order to legitimize Israel’s response. Some of the most egregious examples, some of the most blatant examples we’ve seen are, for example, these accusations that Hamas beheaded 40 babies. And we have seen accusations that Hamas conducted systematic rape against women. Now it became clear quite soon that these narratives were false. But these narratives are deliberate. They’re not accidental. Throughout the history of all conflicts, we’ve seen narratives from the first world war that show how the enemy attacks babies and rapes women. Why? Because these are red lines in almost every culture. People think the idea of killing babies and children is horrific which it is. So, if you can convince people that that’s what the enemy do, that’s what Hamas are doing, then you can also convince those same people especially in the west like the US, a big Israeli Ally, to support Israel’s brutal genocide in Gaza. Those are some of the big examples but there are number of other techniques and tools. For example, the use of fake accounts online. This is a very common tactic we know. For example, that Israeli firms have skill set where they can create thousands of fake accounts, not just on X, but on Twitter, on Facebook, on TikTok. And then these accounts will engage in spreading propaganda and misinformation. One particular campaign that I thought was very interesting was the use of loads of fake accounts to spread disinformation about UNWRA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. This has been a big part of Israel’s campaign, is to smear UNWRA. Why? Because UNWRA is one of the biggest employers of Palestinians and it’s one of the entities that basically sustains Palestinians claim to statehood. Israel have been on a huge campaign to link those the UNWRA to terrorism. This is another tactic of disinformation. It’s to tie legitimate organizations and accuse them of terror. In this disinformation campaign, we had fake accounts creating fake websites, creating fake social media accounts, and then using them to try to spread disinformation about UNWRA being connected to terrorism. This is just another example of it. The effectiveness of these campaigns is not clear but we do know, for example, that a number of countries started to remove funding from UNWRA. And recently the United States for example passed a federal funding bill that also banned funding to UNWRA next year. So, it does seem that these campaigns actually do have an impact which is very unfortunate and that impact is to trying undermine harm and delegitimize the Palestinian cause.
So, you said that actually what Israel targeted resulted in according to what they aimed. Some countries stopped funding UNWRA and the claims were spread internationally that they were employing Hamas militants. To talk about more specifically, what do these online deceptions cause in the understanding of Gaza?
I think you know information now is increasingly consumed online. And it’s easy for anyone to create the illusion of a narrative. An important element of techniques, if one person says something, you ignore it. If you have a thousand people saying something, then it becomes a narrative, it becomes a piece of information. The problem is online. It’s easy to create a thousand people, a thousand fake accounts. That’s exactly what we’re seeing. I think so much of the information around Gaza is being consumed on online through social media. Why? Because Israel are prohibiting journalists from going into Gaza to see what’s on the ground. So, the only information we see is either filtered information through Israeli State Ministries or disinformation or when we’re lucky, footage from Palestinian citizens. And so, it’s a very online war, a disinformation war, a very social media-oriented disinformation war. The thing is with online is that it’s very easy for something to go viral. We know that the Israeli official state accounts linked to Israel whether it’s the IDF or the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs are using social media to spread clear disinformation. And when I say that it’s disinformation that they even deleted. I’ll give you an example. The Israel official Ministry of Foreign Affairs account has, on several occasions, spread, for example, the information that Palestinians are using toy dolls and pretend that they’re dead babies. There’s been at least three occasions where the Foreign Affairs account has said this. And it’s proven to be false. There’s no way in hell that they know that that to be true. So, they are deliberately spreading this kind of false narrative but these get thousands and thousands of retweets. Then you have someone in, for example, the US repeating these claims. We know, for example, that Secretary Blinken and Joe Biden himself have repeated claims that originated on social media about beheaded babies and repeated them in a press conference. So, information from the social media space generated by Israel or the IDF or Israel entities then breaks out. It goes from social media to other forms of media and that’s the secret. That’s how you do it. You start disinformation narrative online on digital media and you feed it into the mainstream media. So, it looks credible.
What role do the social media companies have in that?
Well, social media companies we’re talking about with the exception of Tik Tok which is Chinese, most social media companies are US-based and they are all slightly different but for the most part, social media companies are accused of being more pro-Israel, siding with Israel. Well, with the exception of TikTok which is Chinese, most social media companies that are commonly used Instagram, META, Snapchat are Western. They’re based in the US and most of these social media companies have been accused of having a pro-Israel bias. We know from studies done that when they do content moderation which is to make sure that the content isn’t harmful, they generally favor pro-Israeli narratives. We’ve had lots of examples of Palestinian accounts, and Palestinian activists being shadowed, having their accounts limited by social media companies. We’ve even had a few examples where, for example, the automatic translation of Arabic on Instagram, for example, a Palestinian had the phrase “Ana Falestini, Alhamdulillah” which translates as “I’m Palestinian, praise be to God” that translated as I’m a Palestinian terrorist. So, the social media companies tried to say this was a hallucination. But this is actually very much reflective of how these companies have taught their machine learning models to associate, I think, Arabic terminology with terrorism. So, there’s a natural bias there against Palestinians. There’s other interesting examples Motaz Azaiza who’s one of the most well-known citizen journalists to come out of the recent conflict. He was recently banned from Facebook. So, I think, what we’re seeing is a disproportionate policing of Palestinian voices on social media by American companies who generally align with the US position on Israel. And now we’re also seeing this kind of war on TikTok. The war on TikTok is obviously designed primarily because of concerns about data privacy. But there’s also an argument to be made that many Americans have raised concerns that TikTok is allowing pro-Palestinian content to flourish. And now there are forces trying to get TikTok banned not because of privacy issues but because it’s seen as being pro-Palestinian. So, social media companies are definitely; American ones siding with Israel in terms of how they censor and block content. And we even see now cause to ban other social media companies that aren’t American simply because they are not censoring Palestinian content as much as the American ones.
There are also so many claims about Israel is using artificial intelligence both in the offensive technologies and social media manipulation. What can you tell us about that? What do we know about the use of Israel in terms of AI tools?
Well, I think, firstly AI in terms of social media and disinformation is obviously a growing problem. We’ve seen number of examples. I’m not going to say they are necessarily Israel because they’re not all directly linked to Israel that we know of. They might be.
But, for example, we do see a lot of pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian disinformation that has used AI just as an example. There was Bella Hadid who’s a US model and has a strong pro-Palestinian voice early on in the conflict. Someone manipulated a video of her to say that she was condemning Hamas and she was apologetic for her previous stance this was obviously false. We’ve seen number of instances for example where Israel pro-Israel accounts and including the Israeli account for Minister Foreign Affairs has shared AI generated images claiming that they represented, for example, in one case delivering aid to Palestinians. They, then, deleted this and acknowledged that it was created by artificial intelligence. So, we’re definitely seeing use the fake images to trick people. But, I think, the more alarming element of this is now the creation of systems like Habsora which is the Hebrew term for Gospel. This is a new AI tool that is meant to select and acquire targets in Gaza. So, they’re using this tool to automatically select areas of Gaza to bomb. They claim that this tool is much more efficient and faster than a human. So, essentially AI is now doing the job of what humans used to do in selecting targets. As far as we know this is one of the first times this tool has been used. But we also know this is the deadliest war in Gaza in history and over 32,000 people have been killed. What we’re seeing is the use of these new tools at a time when the civilian death toll is huge. This seems to suggest that this new efficiency of AI targeting is actually also correlated with the mass killing of Palestinians. And it’s particularly alarming because AI models are trained on data and because Israel is an occupying state, an apartheid state; it’s very probable that the data that it’s trained its model one is probably anti-Palestinian and it probably kind of inherits these biases and says things “I’m going to select the target and it doesn’t matter if five Palestinian civilians die because I’ve been trained to do that”. So, we don’t know what exactly much about this AI model because they’re not transparent. But they’re using this to kill people. And I think this is something that’s really, really alarming.
What do we know about the legacy of AI tools in both in war zone and in the digital sphere?
So, Israel is using Gospel and maybe some other AI tools. I know that it’s not your field but you’re a researcher in Middle Eastern areas. Maybe you have a take on this.
AI probabilities are endless. This is the problem. So, in theory now you could have AI tools that would create thousands, perhaps millions of fake accounts and allow thousands perhaps millions of fake accounts to generate disinformation and propaganda at a scale we’ve never seen before. I think I’ve seen evidence of this in the past few years, not necessarily in Israel. In terms of warfare, again, hugely damaging. We talked about Gospel but sure, what about facial recognition? The ability to process thousands of faces, millions of faces at once, to be able to do that and then target those faces automatically, to be able to process DNA, to be able to process the kind of information profiles of people using complex algorithms that then determines whether that person is a threat or not. I think you know there there’s the limits of AI in terms of warfare are only limits of human creativity. Unfortunately, I think, the problem with AI is not necessarily in what it can do. It’s in who is calling the shots about, who’s controlling it. So, if we have a political system that’s one of a apartheid occupation, the use of AI is going to reflect that. We’re definitely seeing that. The information space, social media, disinformation is not ready for AI. We’re going to see increasingly the weaponization of AI to create propaganda on a scale that I think is unprecedented in history.
Recently United Nations passed a resolution on the good use of AI. So, it was kind of supportive and sponsored by so many countries including Türkiye and some others in the region. Do you follow any discussions in United Nations regarding the use of AI in these negative terms as Israel does? What is going to be the future of AI if it’s going to be used so much more on the warfare zone and in digital front?
Well, the problem with any of these legislations whether the UN or, I know, the EU have also initiated some legislation on ethical use of AI. But, again, when it comes to security and national security, often these areas are separate in terms of the legislation. This is because national security is often seen as a red line. All this does to me basically suggests that countries still have a bit of a cart blanch to do whatever they want with AI. I think the use of generative AI for warfare is going to be necessarily going to be limited or controlled or constrained in the same way, for example, we see the regulation of the nuclear space. We still live in a place where people have nuclear weapons right and it’s in over the trajectory of the past 10 years, we’ve seen perhaps a space in which nuclear weapons aren’t as controlled as they were. If we apply that same logic to AI it basically says that the era we’re in is one in which states are increasingly taking more and more dangerous risks with their defense industry. I don’t see why suddenly we’re going to make our approach to nuclear warfare more liable but we’re going to police AI. I don’t see the logic in that. And so, I don’t think there’s necessarily a decoupling. I don’t think these resolutions in terms of AI are necessarily going to affect how they might use for warfare. If anything, what’s going on in Gaza is anything to go by, then, in fact, people will be going to countries like Israel to say how does your technology work and how can we use it and how can we make it better. And we’re shifting the AI generally is going to be shift to, sort of, what they call preventative policing, is trying to police before crimes happen. And that’s a very alarming thing. That’s why I mentioned facial recognition. Because if you can monitor, track people based on their information in theory, you can arrest them or control them at an early point. So, I think AI is going to shift to this point of preventative policing but as it does that, I think we are, then, in the area of potentially having a police state.
My last question, Professor Jones: Can you tell us how the audience can distinguish the fake news, the disinformation from the real ones? Because misinformation is really widespread and it’s kind of impossible to recognize whether it is fake or not. So, what can you tell us shortly as recommendations?
There’s no one way to detect AI to disinformation, it’s impossible. But you can start to do things that will help you not be so willing to believe things. For example, let’s say if you use X, if you see a tweet from someone, is that account real? Do they are they linked to any other institution? Does the photo look like a stock photo? Does their timeline consistently talk about the same issues? These are important things to notion about. If it triggers an emotional response in you, there’s a good chance it could be fake. Remember one aspect of disinformation is that it’s designed to make you react either to feel angry, to feel sad, mad or laugh. So, if it triggers an emotional response in you, it could be that it’s trying to manipulate you. So, if you feel a particular way after seeing some information, then, treat it extra carefully. I think that’s the biggest piece of advice I could give you, beware of content that makes you particularly emotional. Because this is what people who design this information are trying to do.
So, you’re mainly recommending all of us to double check anything we see on social media.
No. Triple check.
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INTERVIEW
“The current interests of German capital coincide with the CDU-SPD coalition”
Published
20 hours agoon
14/11/2024Germany’s long-swinging SPD-Greens-FDP coalition government (“traffic light”) has collapsed. The collapse seems to have started when the FDP raised the flag to its coalition partners over the budget and the constitutional debt brake. But the German economy’s problems, which began before the Ukraine war and the anti-Russian sanctions, combined with high inflation, energy costs and a declining export market in China, have once again led to Europe’s largest economy being labeled a “sick man”.
Arnold Schölzel, a member of the editorial board of Junge Welt, Germany’s daily left-wing newspaper, argues that Germany’s growth, the war in Ukraine and the simultaneous financing of social expenditures have come to an end and that the FDP’s demand for sharp social cuts is in fact the program of the next federal government.
Schölzel points out that the CDU/CSU, which seems to be opposed to loosening the constitutional debt brake, is preparing to back down in a new government. Schölzel believes that there are still nuances between the parties and that this will be one of the issues of the upcoming election campaign.
Noting that German capital has interests in Eastern Europe and Ukraine, the journalist reminds that Eastern Europe in particular is a “reserve of cheap labor” for German industry and underlines that capital supports pro-war policies. Therefore, it is highly likely that the German economy will go along with the militarization of society from now on.
Schölzel sees the Alternative for Germany (AfD) as a “continuation of the CDU/CSU” and believes that the interests of German capital lie in a CDU-SPD coalition.
‘FDP ANNOUNCES PROGRAM FOR THE NEXT GOVERNMENT’
As it turns out, the collapse of the traffic light coalition in Germany was in fact long overdue. An economic crisis “invented” by the Ukraine war and anti-Russian sanctions, and defeats in this year’s European Parliament and East German state elections, had shown that the government’s time had come. Does the collapse lie simply in the difference in economic programs between the FDP and the SPD-Greens? How far do the parliamentary parties differ in their proposed solutions to the economic and political crisis in Germany?
This government was a wartime government from the start. It entered the USA’s proxy war in Ukraine with considerable financial resources and waged an economic war against Russia – with devastating consequences not for Russia, but for German industry. She accepted the blowing up of the Nord Stream 2 Baltic Sea pipeline, presumably by the US-government. As a result, the German economy has been in recession for two years and is at the bottom of the list in terms of growth among the industrialized countries. This pushed the state budget to its limits. The simultaneous financing of growth impulses, war and social benefits is no longer possible. The FDP wanted sharp social cuts. In doing so, it announces the policies of the next federal government.
‘EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES A RESERVE OF CHEAP LABOR FOR GERMAN INDUSTRY’
The reactions to Chancellor Scholz and his government from the German business community are also striking. All the spokespeople of capital, especially the industrialists, align themselves with the CDU/CSU and demand immediate elections, citing the return of Donald Trump and the Ukrainian War as justification. But when it comes to the debate on the constitutional debt brake, there seems to be no unity. Is the debt brake really that important? Is it possible to support Ukraine, fight against Trump’s potential tariffs and at the same time reduce the German national debt?
The German capital was and is in agreement with Scholz’s war course. It has sharply reduced economic ties with Russia and also supports a hostile policy towards China, albeit more cautiously. Both industry and the CDU/CSU have now declared their willingness to reform the debt brake. They demand subsidies for industry and arms deliveries to Ukraine. The German economy has long-term interests there – as in all of Eastern Europe. The Eastern European countries serve as a workbench for German industry and as a reservoir for cheap labor. German industry sees it as Germany’s backyard. There are still differences on the question of how deep the social cuts should be. This will probably be the focus of the election campaign.
Does the German state see the economic restructuring program and the militarization of the state, the economy and society as one and the same? The new conscription law, the debate on conscription and the modernization of the Bundeswehr seem to be propagandized as a way out of the crisis. Parliamentary Commissioner for the Armed Forces Eva Högl said last summer that young people learn “structure, comradeship, a sense of duty” in the Bundeswehr, “all qualities from which the economy also benefits”. Are we facing a plan to militarize the economy?
Yes, those in power are concerned with the militarization of society as a whole. They say this quite openly: The Bundeswehr should advertise in schools – there is a new law for this in Bavaria. The healthcare system is gearing up to treat large numbers of injured people. The German War Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) summarized this in the term “war capability”. It would have to be produced in four to five years because Russia would then probably attack NATO. Overall, it is a reactionary-militaristic restructuring of the state in which, above all, civil rights are restricted.
‘FASCISM IN GERMANY WAS REHABILITATED BY THE UKRAINE WAR’
When it comes to the Israeli aggression in Gaza, the AfD and the Greens support the same parliamentary bill. Similarly, when it comes to the “fight against irregular migration”, the CDU/CSU almost matches the AfD. Although all parties refuse to cooperate with the AfD, is it possible to say that AfD policies have already become “mainstream” in German politics? In any case, the AfD is likely to play a role in Germany’s future.
The AfD is a continuation of the politics of the CDU/CSU. The difference: It allows open fascists in the party. The CDU and CSU have been fighting racist incitement against migrants and asylum seekers for 40 years. The AfD has taken this over and expanded it: it has increased racism and consciously encourages violence. The AfD has always been on Israel’s side because of the oppression and murder of Muslims. This has increased further with the current genocide in Gaza. The Greens are the most bellicose German party today. They use racist clichés against Russia in the Ukraine war and completely agree with the racist position of the Netanyahu government. The Greens denounce any criticism of Israel’s policies as anti-Semitism and are successful in doing so. Because of the fascists in the AfD, there are still reservations among other parties at the federal level about working with the AfD. Things are different at the state level; cooperation works in the municipalities. Since fascism there was rehabilitated in Germany, particularly with the war in Ukraine, it may well be that the AfD will also be accepted at the federal level in a few years. As long as it still pretends to strive for peace with Russia, this is unlikely.
‘CONDITIONS ARE BEING CREATED FOR GREATER INDEPENDENCE FOR GERMAN IMPERIALISM’
It can also be linked to the question above: The cry for a “strong and decisive government” has an important place among the voices rising from within the ruling class. The polls indicate that the CDU/CSU would be the winning party in a possible federal snap election. Can the CDU/CSU alone meet this demand for a “strong and stable government”? Will German politics be forced to turn to “non-political” actors or institutions?
The date of the next federal election was negotiated between the CDU/CSU and SPD. This is symptomatic: they communicate despite all the rhetoric. As things currently stand, only a coalition of both parties can form the next government. In my opinion, this also corresponds to the current interests of the German capital. The ruling class is not yet committed to an authoritarian regime domestically, but is preparing the conditions for it. In terms of foreign policy, it cannot yet break away from the USA, but is striving for a stronger leadership role in the EU and perhaps in NATO. This also creates the conditions for greater independence for German imperialism in the future.
The Turkic Investment Fund, the first international financial institution of the Turkic world, is preparing to announce its policy document on January 1, 2025. Ambassador Baghdad Amreyev, President of the Turkic Investment Fund answered our questions.
You are quite new to the financial international cooperation institution. And you had your first Board of Directors meeting in May. Could you tell us what the outcomes of that meeting were, and what is the roadmap for implementing the strategies and resolutions that were discussed there?
As you know, the decision to establish the Turkic Investment Fund was made by the leaders of the Turkic world at their summit in Samarkand in 2022. In November 2022, they signed a special agreement for the establishment of the Turkic Investment Fund, which is the first financial mechanism and institution of the Turkic world. I was appointed as the founding president there.
We then began preparing the establishment agreement, and in a very short period of time, we finalized the agreement. On March 16, 2023, during an extraordinary summit of Turkic leaders in Ankara, the finance and economy ministers of our countries signed this establishment agreement in the presence of our leaders. It was a truly historic moment.
By the end of 2023, the ratification process was completed in our parliament, and as per the agreement, the Fund officially came into force on February 24, 2024. This is what we consider the “birthday” of the Fund.
A lot of organizational work has been completed since then. On May 18, as the President of the Turkic Investment Fund, I convened the inaugural meeting of the Board of Governors, which is the highest governing body of the Fund.
Cevdet Yılmaz, The Vice President of Türkiye also participated in that meeting, right?
Yes, The Vice President of Türkiye, His Excellency Mr. Cevdet Yılmaz, also participated in and chaired this meeting. It was a great honor for us.
The meeting was highly successful, and the Governors made several key decisions, including the completion of the institutionalization of the Fund. They also established the Board of Directors and gave them instructions to prepare key procedural documents and other necessary actions.
Since then, in June and August, I convened two meetings with the Board of Directors, during which we made crucial decisions for the commencement of the Fund’s operational activities. Establishing the operational structure and preparing the investment policy are ongoing tasks.
Our investment policy, in particular, is still being drafted.
The investment policy is still underway, then.
Yes, it is still underway. This is an essential document, as it will outline the priorities of the Fund, specify which projects we will focus on, and what our role will be.
During the first meeting of the Board of Governors, Mr. Ramil Babayev from Azerbaijan was appointed as Director General of the Turkic Investment Fund, responsible for managing the Fund’s operations.
Once the investment policy is finalized and the management structure is fully in place, we will be ready to commence operational activities.
I understand that your policy preparations are still in progress, but can you give us a sense of which key sectors or industries the Turkic Investment Fund will support?
Yes, our priorities are quite clear, and I have spoken about them on many occasions. First of all, it’s important to note that the Turkic Investment Fund serves multiple purposes. If we only needed to finance projects within our own countries, there would have been no need to establish a new fund. We already have numerous funds and banks for that.
However, the Turkic Investment Fund was established not only for financing projects within our countries but also to contribute to the economic integration of our nations. The Fund’s main focus will be to finance joint projects that promote integration and cooperation among our countries. This is vital for the unity and economic strength of the Turkic world.
Could you elaborate on the concept of economic integration for the Turkic world?
Any political or economic block has its final causes. Our goal is to bring together our economies to unite the potential to serve the Turkic world. Economic integration means working together to strengthen our economies and unite our economic potential. We are seven countries. By encouraging trade, facilitating investments, and supporting joint ventures in areas such as infrastructure, energy, and transportation, we aim to build a stronger and more united Turkic world.
What do you mean by “economic integration”? Are you talking about a common Turkic currency or infrastructure as part of this integration?
Economic integration doesn’t necessarily mean having a single currency or unified infrastructure, at least not initially. It’s more about deeper engagement in each other’s economies through joint projects, especially in key sectors such as energy, transportation, and small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs).
Our goal is to create an economic and political bloc that can work towards common objectives, much like the European Union or other regional groups. We need to support each other’s economies and collaborate on joint projects that benefit all our countries. This is a key condition for the unity of the Turkic world.
I understand the Fund was the missing part in the Turkic world. Now, you believe that you filled this gap.
The Turkic unity has been very fresh. The Organization of Turkic States and other related cooperation organizations were established 10-15 years ago only. It is very short period. Of course, we need time. I am sure the Turkic Investment Fund will accelerate this process.
We need to work together to make our economies more competitive and resilient. Over time, the Turkic Investment Fund aims to become the primary financial tool for promoting economic integration within the Turkic world.
One of the Fund’s key priorities is to attract foreign investments into our countries. There are two ways to do this: First, by supporting national projects and encouraging foreign partners to participate, and second, by collaborating with other international financial institutions, such as the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, Asian Development Bank, and Islamic Development Bank, among others.
Of course, we are not able to finance ourselves for huge projects but those financial institutions are so eager to contribute to our projects.
Well, Ambassador Amreyev, I understand that you have a positive cooperative perspective regarding other powers in Asia in terms of both institutions and countries. But at the same time, they bring some kind of geopolitical challenges. China, Russia, some other neighbouring European countries… How would Turkic Investment Fund navigate these geopolitical challenges? Following this, another question could be that: If the Turkic block rising as a global power and Turkic Investment Fund wants to be an active player in finance sector, how would you sustain your strategies given those facts?
The investment fund is a financial institution, not a political organization. This is why the Turkic Investment Fund is not involved in the geopolitical competition or challenges of today’s troubled world. Yes, we recognize the dramatic challenges facing the global community, but addressing those is the job of politicians. As financiers, our role is to contribute to cooperation rather than competition. By focusing on cooperation, we can help mitigate some of these global challenges and reduce the intensity of international competition.
Our role, therefore, is a positive one, working with other economic and financial institutions. Through constructive cooperation and joint projects, we aim to support and promote collaborative efforts in our complex world.
On the other hand, we also recognize that globalization has significantly increased competition worldwide. Consequently, our countries face challenges in attracting investments. This competition is real, and our goal is to help our countries navigate these challenges and become more competitive. By successfully supporting the growth of our economies, we can play a crucial role in enhancing the competitiveness of our nations.
Currently, six countries are full members of the Turkic Investment Fund—Türkiye, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and Hungary. We also expect that Turkmenistan will join as the seventh full member soon. Additionally, the Turkic Investment Fund is open to cooperation with non-member institutions. Our establishment agreement allows other countries to join if they meet the required conditions and agree to the terms. This allows for constructive cooperation with external partners as well.
Regarding international financial institutions, we are open to working with all of them. We are already in negotiations and have observed a growing interest from various financial institutions in collaborating with us. By working with large financial funds, banks, and institutions, we can participate in significant development and infrastructure projects within our member countries.
These large financial institutions recognize the need for cooperation, and this implies substantial investments in major infrastructure projects. For example, there is growing interest in expanding energy infrastructure in Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, particularly in light of the Russia-Ukraine war, which has increased the importance of the Turkic world for Europe. We know that the European Union plans to invest billions of euros in energy projects within the Turkic region. Can you give more information about the projects?
Large infrastructure projects are costly and require the participation of multiple financial institutions. As I mentioned, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, as well as several Asian banks, are keen on establishing such cooperation. We already have several projects in the pipeline, particularly in the energy sector to be financed. While Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, and Azerbaijan are oil and gas producers, what we need now is more cross-border energy infrastructure such as pipelines and powerlines to transport these resources efficiently.
Building the transportation network is important, not just for production but also for consumers. That’s why we see growing interest from other international financial institutions. Our national governments have plans, and I know Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, and Azerbaijan are involved in initiatives to build gas pipelines from Turkmenistan to Azerbaijan, Türkiye, and Europe. Our countries and our European partners are paying great attention to these projects.
There are also other energy projects in the Turkic world. For example, there are major plans to build an energy plant in Kyrgyzstan that will serve Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. These huge infrastructure projects are already being studied by various financial institutions, and there are numerous areas for cooperation. Of course, we are closely working with our governments, monitoring their priorities, plans, and programs. We also consider the decisions made by national governments and at our summits and intergovernmental commissions, ensuring that we align with the priorities of our member states, which are our shareholders.
We know that Hungary, for example, has been highly appreciated by the Organization of Turkic States (OTS) for its contributions, especially during its EU presidency. Hungary’s role in connecting Europe and the Turkic world is considered very important. At the same time, Hungary has officially stated that it is contributing a significant amount of money to the Turkic Investment Fund. Can you give more information on this?
Yes, this is not a secret. The fund was initially established by five member states, and then Hungary joined with an equal share. Each country contributed $100 million, making the initial capital of the fund $600 million. As I’ve mentioned, this starting capital will be significantly increased in the coming years to make the fund more competitive and attractive for cooperation with other international financial institutions.
Will the shares always remain equal?
Not necessarily. The initial capital was contributed in equal shares, but additional capital may be decided later and won’t necessarily follow the same distribution. As for Hungary, it has joined as a full member with the same share as other members. I must say that Hungary has played a very constructive role in Turkic cooperation since they joined the Organization of Turkic States in 2018. Hungary actively participates in all cooperation mechanisms alongside other OTS member states. Recently, I was in Budapest, where we finalized Hungary’s accession to the fund, making them a full member. Hungary truly plays an indispensable role in connecting the Turkic world to Europe, and between the European Union and the Organization of Turkic States. We appreciate Hungary’s role, and I believe it will continue to grow in the future, contributing not only to the integration of the Turkic world but also to its global integration into the world economy through closer cooperation with the EU.
Just to clarify about the contributions to the fund—how much will be each country paying? For instance, in Türkiye, there is discussion about whether Türkiye is contributing state funds for projects like energy infrastructure and pipelines in Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan. People are curious about the exact figures to be transferred from treasury to the investments in other countries.
As with any international financial institution, all decisions regarding project financing and prioritization will be made by the Board of Directors. The interests and contributions of each country will be considered, and there won’t be any “losers”—only winners.
Thank you very much for this great interview, Ambassador. It sounds like many things are still in progress, but can you give us one headline for now? Which region of the world is most likely to cooperate with you on large-scale projects in the near future? Will it be Europe, Asia, Russia, or the Gulf countries? What will be the biggest surprise regarding Turkic Investment Fund cooperation?
First of all, the Turkic Investment Fund is a newly established financial institution, and we will commence our operational activities on January 1, 2025. We are in close contact and negotiations with financial institutions in Europe, Asia, the Islamic world, and the Arab world. We see strong interest from their side, and we are equally eager to develop relationships with them.
I think the biggest surprise will be our success in the Turkic region, within our member states. We are seriously committed to contributing to the economic development of our countries and supporting entrepreneurs who are working together on joint projects. We are here to support them and encourage more joint ventures among the Turkic countries and their companies.
As I mentioned, the ultimate goal is to contribute to greater economic integration among the Turkic countries, which will serve as the foundation for a more united Turkic world. This is our main purpose.
Thank you, Ambassador Baghdad Amreyev, for this diplomatic interview. We look forward to hearing more after January 1, when the policies, investments, and projects of the Turkic Investment Fund are officially launched.
INTERVIEW
We asked experts about BRICS – 3: What are the challenges facing the member countries?
Published
3 weeks agoon
28/10/2024As the fallout from the BRICS Summit in Kazan, the capital of the Republic of Tatarstan in the Russian Federation, continues, we put questions about the agenda to Dr. Nina Ladygina-Glazounova, the General director of the BRICS & SCO Innovative Diplomacy Centre.
Ilber Vasfi Sel: Mrs Nina, you also attended the summit in Kazan. You are already continuing your work as a “professional “bricsologist” in the institution of which you are the General director and co-founder. For Vladimir Putin, the President of the Russian Federation, the summit is seen as both symbolic and practical. What do you think? How do you assess the significance of this summit for Russia? How will this summit affect Russia’s global agenda? There are also competing countries within BRICS. Given the rivalries and conflicts among the member countries, how do you see the BRICS goal of deepening cooperation in various fields?
Nina Ladygina-Glazounova: The significance of the BRICS Summit in Kazan for Russia lies primarily in the complete failure of the West’s policy of isolating Russia, demonstrating recognition of Russia’s long-term importance on the world stage, despite the general tensions. The BRICS Summit in Kazan has become the event of the century, bringing together heads of delegation’s from Azerbaijan, Armenia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belarus, Bolivia, Congo, Cuba, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Malaysia, Mauritania, Mongolia, Nicaragua, Palestine, Serbia, Sri Lanka, Tajikistan, Thailand, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Vietnam and Republika Srpska (an entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina).23 of them were at the level of Heads of State and Government not only from the BRICS member countries (Russia, Brazil, United Arab Emirates, China, Egypt, Ethiopia, India, Iran, South Africa and Saudi Arabia as an invited country), but also from the countries of the Global South, which showed great interest in the Summit, as well as the heads of five international organisation’s: the United Nations (Secretary-General – Antonio Guterres), the Eurasian Economic Commission (Chairman – Bakytjan Abdiruli Sagittayev), the Commonwealth of Independent States (Secretary General – Sergei Lebedev), the State of the Union of Russia and Belarus (State Secretary – Dmitry Mezentsev), the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (Secretary General – Zhang Ming) and the BRICS New Development Bank (Bank President – Dilma Rousseff).
We asked experts about BRICS – 1: Can the independent BRICS payment system succeed?
The declaration issued on the 23 of October, after the meetings of the Sherpas and heads of delegations of the BRICS countries, the way to promote the institutional development of BRICS adopted by consensus, and for the first time in history of BRICS, the countries included in the union are not specified in the first paragraph of the declaration.
What could this mean?
It can be assumed that the main reason is primarily due to the expansion and uncertain status of Saudi Arabia, which is still in the process of accepting its status as a full member, although it participated as an equal in most BRICS formats and meetings.
Particular attention was also paid to the media, ICT and the dangers of fake news and the dissemination of unverified information about our countries.
Thanks to the summit and the whole range of horizontal formats of this year, Russia was able to expand its opportunities to enter new markets during its year of its Chairmanship in the BRICS, which is certainly a positive moment, and the country should have followed this direction from the very beginning, from the moment of its formation, and not look only at Western countries as the main direction. Now, if we look at it as a “puzzle”, the process of diversifying the economy and moving away from production focused exclusively on components from abroad has begun, and the influence of foreign component manufacturers on us has gradually diminished. Russia has agreed to sign a comprehensive strategic partnership agreement with Iran.
Also, thanks to the summit, Russia was able to once again to discuss the main points and reach an agreement with Iran on signing a comprehensive strategic partnership agreement.
Today we can confidently say that the most powerful BRICS countries are Russia, China, India and Iran. In other words, countries that have become the antipode of the unipolar Western world… We can talk about a global union of BRICS countries that surpasses the G7 in its parameters, and this is about the economic future of our planet.
Despite their common objectives and their focus on a multipolar world, and despite the preservation of their own identities, the BRICS countries face various forms of competition and territorial challenges, especially with their neighbours.
China and India are both large emerging economies competing for the influence in global markets and the developing world, and have territorial disputes with each other. At the same time, India and China announced progress in resolving long-standing border issues with the help of Russia’s diplomatic efforts, and this was a significant achievement at the summit. We see geopolitical tensions between Russia and South Africa have emerged since the start of the special military operation. Russia and China are close partners in all areas, but there are areas in the individual political agendas of both countries where they may clash, such as in Central Asian countries like Kazakhstan.
During the summit, BRICS countries and their future partners drew attention to Palestine and the Middle East region as a whole, while nearly two billion Muslims around the world watched the events in Kazan. Many heads of delegation’s declared their position in support of Palestine, a very sensitive and fragile region that requires rapid peaceful coexistence and compliance with UN conventions. Accordingly, the Summit adopted a strong final declaration that underlined the importance of the Palestinian issue for the world Muslim community.
We see how Brazil is not very happy with Venezuela’s rapprochement with the BRICS and this is one of the main reasons why we do not see it in the list of partner countries (13 countries have been granted BRICS partner country status: Turkey, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Algeria, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Thailand, Uganda and Vietnam), like Pakistan is not on the list because of the position of India. But BRICS will not be a platform for confrontation in relation to the G7 due to different ideas about the world order in different states and civilizations. We have Narendra Modi, who builds his policy on resolving all conflicts in the world peacefully and through negotiations, but he very rarely touches on issues related to Pakistan… Because there has been a conflict between them for many years and at the same time we see how China and Russia are promoting Pakistan as a BRICS partner now.
Therefore, I believe that BRICS should promote mutually beneficial areas of cooperation, such as increasing trade turnover, mutual investment to avoid conflicts, it is necessary to resolve issues of demarcation of spheres of influence in certain regions “on the shore”, socio-humanitarian exchanges to allow us to get to know each other better and perhaps “bury the hatche” in the case of some countries, as well as regulate possible interventions in cultural expansion, like the Republic of Turkey is doing through “soft power”.
On the other hand, we have South America, that is very unstable in every sense, socially, politically, economically, and under the strong influence of the United States. But it is important to remember that when you come to the BRICS as a platform, you have to forget all this (competition and territorial challenges), because you have to think about the big picture and the global agenda. And the Kazan Summit, which can be called truly peaceful, was the event that brought together some of the participants in the BRICS+ format, for example, Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan and Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev, to discuss advancing the bilateral peace agenda, including a peace treaty, border demarcation and other issues of mutual interest, and encouraged them to negotiate to resolve mutual issues that had previously stalled.
Summit declaration also describes the mechanisms already in place for foreign exchange reserves in national currencies. Although they are not yet as large and comprehensive as existing institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank, but they already pose a serious threat to them. The BRICS Pay mechanism has also been launched – a payment system project similar to the Chinese CIPS system and the international SWIFT system, to which you can link international payment cards Visa and Mastercard or national bank cards such as MIR, RuPay, China UnionPay and use it in the BRICS+ countries. A direct, clear and effective way to find collective solutions with the participation of developing countries is de-dollarization through the ever-wider use of national currencies and it is time for us to have what we call a new reserve currency.
The convergence of representatives of numerous civilisations and cultures, who unconsciously want to promote their own agendas for the good of their own countries, makes it difficult to take decisions towards something united on issues that are only open to the countries of the Global South, such as the reform of the UN Security Council or climate change (recall that Vladimir Putin also carefully hinted at this in his statement about using the green agenda to harm society).
It is clear that the role of the BRICS will increase, and the BRICS countries are already driving global economic growth, shifting the geopolitical landscape towards Eurasia and the South as a whole. According to the results of the current year, the average economic growth rate of the BRICS is estimated at 4 per cent. This is higher than the G7’s rate of just 1.7 per cent. With such a difference in economic growth rates, most of the increase in global GDP in the foreseeable future will be generated in the BRICS. OPEC Plus is actually part of the BRICS, and Russia and Saudi Arabia are actually the leaders there. They set global oil prices. But it is worth remembering that most of the trading platforms are owned by Western companies that lobby their interests to fight this, and it is necessary to unite for a common and prosperous future.
BRICS is different from the UN in that everyone sits at the same table and has an equal voice with a more equitable representation of member states. Perhaps BRICS can be an alternative to the UN in the future, the reform of which is advocated by all BRICS countries. But it will be a long process.
Aware of their problems and territorial disputes, the BRICS countries want to focus on a common agenda of global cooperation. From 1 January 2024, with the accession of new countries to the Union, strong ties and dialogue should be established in the name of a common goal, not just “a priori”, since such a format should not be based as an association on the Anglo-Saxon ideology with the primacy of the United States and European colonial powers. The Union has enormous potential to promote common interests and to foster multipolar global governance based on equality and respect.
BRICS as an association has enormous potential to advance common interests and promote multipolar global governance based on equality and respect. Consensus is also, on the one hand, a guarantee that the national interests of any participant are guaranteed, but also a factor that does not simplify the introduction of negotiations.
Ilber Vasfi Sel: Dr. Ladygina-Glazounova, Harici thank you for your comprehensive and insightful responses.
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