INTERVIEW
How does Israel use social media and technology for disinformation?
Published
on
Digitalization expert Associate Professor Marc Owen Jones spoke to Harici about how Israel has been using social media to manipulate and spread fake news during the Gaza war.
Marc Owen Jones is an associate professor of Middle East Studies at Hamad bin Khalifa University, where he lectures and researches on political repression and informational control strategies.
His work focuses on how social media has been used to spread disinformation and fake news in the Middle East, exposing the disinformation campaigns that accompanied Israel’s attacks on Gaza.
Dr. Jones answered our questions on the psychological warfare waged on social media on the Gaza war, the role of large corporations and the use of artificial intelligence algorithms in these campaigns.
Let’s start talking about your researches which you do on disinformation and misinformation. So, you say that Israeli attacks on Gaza have been accompanied by endemic disinformation and misinformation. Can you specify which methods and tools Israel use for that?
So, ever since October, the 7th, we’ve seen essentially a campaign of disinformation and misinformation by Israel. The purpose of the disinformation is primarily to demonize Hamas and make Hamas’s attacks seem as brutal as possible in order to legitimize Israel’s response. Some of the most egregious examples, some of the most blatant examples we’ve seen are, for example, these accusations that Hamas beheaded 40 babies. And we have seen accusations that Hamas conducted systematic rape against women. Now it became clear quite soon that these narratives were false. But these narratives are deliberate. They’re not accidental. Throughout the history of all conflicts, we’ve seen narratives from the first world war that show how the enemy attacks babies and rapes women. Why? Because these are red lines in almost every culture. People think the idea of killing babies and children is horrific which it is. So, if you can convince people that that’s what the enemy do, that’s what Hamas are doing, then you can also convince those same people especially in the west like the US, a big Israeli Ally, to support Israel’s brutal genocide in Gaza. Those are some of the big examples but there are number of other techniques and tools. For example, the use of fake accounts online. This is a very common tactic we know. For example, that Israeli firms have skill set where they can create thousands of fake accounts, not just on X, but on Twitter, on Facebook, on TikTok. And then these accounts will engage in spreading propaganda and misinformation. One particular campaign that I thought was very interesting was the use of loads of fake accounts to spread disinformation about UNWRA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. This has been a big part of Israel’s campaign, is to smear UNWRA. Why? Because UNWRA is one of the biggest employers of Palestinians and it’s one of the entities that basically sustains Palestinians claim to statehood. Israel have been on a huge campaign to link those the UNWRA to terrorism. This is another tactic of disinformation. It’s to tie legitimate organizations and accuse them of terror. In this disinformation campaign, we had fake accounts creating fake websites, creating fake social media accounts, and then using them to try to spread disinformation about UNWRA being connected to terrorism. This is just another example of it. The effectiveness of these campaigns is not clear but we do know, for example, that a number of countries started to remove funding from UNWRA. And recently the United States for example passed a federal funding bill that also banned funding to UNWRA next year. So, it does seem that these campaigns actually do have an impact which is very unfortunate and that impact is to trying undermine harm and delegitimize the Palestinian cause.
So, you said that actually what Israel targeted resulted in according to what they aimed. Some countries stopped funding UNWRA and the claims were spread internationally that they were employing Hamas militants. To talk about more specifically, what do these online deceptions cause in the understanding of Gaza?
I think you know information now is increasingly consumed online. And it’s easy for anyone to create the illusion of a narrative. An important element of techniques, if one person says something, you ignore it. If you have a thousand people saying something, then it becomes a narrative, it becomes a piece of information. The problem is online. It’s easy to create a thousand people, a thousand fake accounts. That’s exactly what we’re seeing. I think so much of the information around Gaza is being consumed on online through social media. Why? Because Israel are prohibiting journalists from going into Gaza to see what’s on the ground. So, the only information we see is either filtered information through Israeli State Ministries or disinformation or when we’re lucky, footage from Palestinian citizens. And so, it’s a very online war, a disinformation war, a very social media-oriented disinformation war. The thing is with online is that it’s very easy for something to go viral. We know that the Israeli official state accounts linked to Israel whether it’s the IDF or the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs are using social media to spread clear disinformation. And when I say that it’s disinformation that they even deleted. I’ll give you an example. The Israel official Ministry of Foreign Affairs account has, on several occasions, spread, for example, the information that Palestinians are using toy dolls and pretend that they’re dead babies. There’s been at least three occasions where the Foreign Affairs account has said this. And it’s proven to be false. There’s no way in hell that they know that that to be true. So, they are deliberately spreading this kind of false narrative but these get thousands and thousands of retweets. Then you have someone in, for example, the US repeating these claims. We know, for example, that Secretary Blinken and Joe Biden himself have repeated claims that originated on social media about beheaded babies and repeated them in a press conference. So, information from the social media space generated by Israel or the IDF or Israel entities then breaks out. It goes from social media to other forms of media and that’s the secret. That’s how you do it. You start disinformation narrative online on digital media and you feed it into the mainstream media. So, it looks credible.
What role do the social media companies have in that?
Well, social media companies we’re talking about with the exception of Tik Tok which is Chinese, most social media companies are US-based and they are all slightly different but for the most part, social media companies are accused of being more pro-Israel, siding with Israel. Well, with the exception of TikTok which is Chinese, most social media companies that are commonly used Instagram, META, Snapchat are Western. They’re based in the US and most of these social media companies have been accused of having a pro-Israel bias. We know from studies done that when they do content moderation which is to make sure that the content isn’t harmful, they generally favor pro-Israeli narratives. We’ve had lots of examples of Palestinian accounts, and Palestinian activists being shadowed, having their accounts limited by social media companies. We’ve even had a few examples where, for example, the automatic translation of Arabic on Instagram, for example, a Palestinian had the phrase “Ana Falestini, Alhamdulillah” which translates as “I’m Palestinian, praise be to God” that translated as I’m a Palestinian terrorist. So, the social media companies tried to say this was a hallucination. But this is actually very much reflective of how these companies have taught their machine learning models to associate, I think, Arabic terminology with terrorism. So, there’s a natural bias there against Palestinians. There’s other interesting examples Motaz Azaiza who’s one of the most well-known citizen journalists to come out of the recent conflict. He was recently banned from Facebook. So, I think, what we’re seeing is a disproportionate policing of Palestinian voices on social media by American companies who generally align with the US position on Israel. And now we’re also seeing this kind of war on TikTok. The war on TikTok is obviously designed primarily because of concerns about data privacy. But there’s also an argument to be made that many Americans have raised concerns that TikTok is allowing pro-Palestinian content to flourish. And now there are forces trying to get TikTok banned not because of privacy issues but because it’s seen as being pro-Palestinian. So, social media companies are definitely; American ones siding with Israel in terms of how they censor and block content. And we even see now cause to ban other social media companies that aren’t American simply because they are not censoring Palestinian content as much as the American ones.
There are also so many claims about Israel is using artificial intelligence both in the offensive technologies and social media manipulation. What can you tell us about that? What do we know about the use of Israel in terms of AI tools?
Well, I think, firstly AI in terms of social media and disinformation is obviously a growing problem. We’ve seen number of examples. I’m not going to say they are necessarily Israel because they’re not all directly linked to Israel that we know of. They might be.
But, for example, we do see a lot of pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian disinformation that has used AI just as an example. There was Bella Hadid who’s a US model and has a strong pro-Palestinian voice early on in the conflict. Someone manipulated a video of her to say that she was condemning Hamas and she was apologetic for her previous stance this was obviously false. We’ve seen number of instances for example where Israel pro-Israel accounts and including the Israeli account for Minister Foreign Affairs has shared AI generated images claiming that they represented, for example, in one case delivering aid to Palestinians. They, then, deleted this and acknowledged that it was created by artificial intelligence. So, we’re definitely seeing use the fake images to trick people. But, I think, the more alarming element of this is now the creation of systems like Habsora which is the Hebrew term for Gospel. This is a new AI tool that is meant to select and acquire targets in Gaza. So, they’re using this tool to automatically select areas of Gaza to bomb. They claim that this tool is much more efficient and faster than a human. So, essentially AI is now doing the job of what humans used to do in selecting targets. As far as we know this is one of the first times this tool has been used. But we also know this is the deadliest war in Gaza in history and over 32,000 people have been killed. What we’re seeing is the use of these new tools at a time when the civilian death toll is huge. This seems to suggest that this new efficiency of AI targeting is actually also correlated with the mass killing of Palestinians. And it’s particularly alarming because AI models are trained on data and because Israel is an occupying state, an apartheid state; it’s very probable that the data that it’s trained its model one is probably anti-Palestinian and it probably kind of inherits these biases and says things “I’m going to select the target and it doesn’t matter if five Palestinian civilians die because I’ve been trained to do that”. So, we don’t know what exactly much about this AI model because they’re not transparent. But they’re using this to kill people. And I think this is something that’s really, really alarming.
What do we know about the legacy of AI tools in both in war zone and in the digital sphere?
So, Israel is using Gospel and maybe some other AI tools. I know that it’s not your field but you’re a researcher in Middle Eastern areas. Maybe you have a take on this.
AI probabilities are endless. This is the problem. So, in theory now you could have AI tools that would create thousands, perhaps millions of fake accounts and allow thousands perhaps millions of fake accounts to generate disinformation and propaganda at a scale we’ve never seen before. I think I’ve seen evidence of this in the past few years, not necessarily in Israel. In terms of warfare, again, hugely damaging. We talked about Gospel but sure, what about facial recognition? The ability to process thousands of faces, millions of faces at once, to be able to do that and then target those faces automatically, to be able to process DNA, to be able to process the kind of information profiles of people using complex algorithms that then determines whether that person is a threat or not. I think you know there there’s the limits of AI in terms of warfare are only limits of human creativity. Unfortunately, I think, the problem with AI is not necessarily in what it can do. It’s in who is calling the shots about, who’s controlling it. So, if we have a political system that’s one of a apartheid occupation, the use of AI is going to reflect that. We’re definitely seeing that. The information space, social media, disinformation is not ready for AI. We’re going to see increasingly the weaponization of AI to create propaganda on a scale that I think is unprecedented in history.
Recently United Nations passed a resolution on the good use of AI. So, it was kind of supportive and sponsored by so many countries including Türkiye and some others in the region. Do you follow any discussions in United Nations regarding the use of AI in these negative terms as Israel does? What is going to be the future of AI if it’s going to be used so much more on the warfare zone and in digital front?
Well, the problem with any of these legislations whether the UN or, I know, the EU have also initiated some legislation on ethical use of AI. But, again, when it comes to security and national security, often these areas are separate in terms of the legislation. This is because national security is often seen as a red line. All this does to me basically suggests that countries still have a bit of a cart blanch to do whatever they want with AI. I think the use of generative AI for warfare is going to be necessarily going to be limited or controlled or constrained in the same way, for example, we see the regulation of the nuclear space. We still live in a place where people have nuclear weapons right and it’s in over the trajectory of the past 10 years, we’ve seen perhaps a space in which nuclear weapons aren’t as controlled as they were. If we apply that same logic to AI it basically says that the era we’re in is one in which states are increasingly taking more and more dangerous risks with their defense industry. I don’t see why suddenly we’re going to make our approach to nuclear warfare more liable but we’re going to police AI. I don’t see the logic in that. And so, I don’t think there’s necessarily a decoupling. I don’t think these resolutions in terms of AI are necessarily going to affect how they might use for warfare. If anything, what’s going on in Gaza is anything to go by, then, in fact, people will be going to countries like Israel to say how does your technology work and how can we use it and how can we make it better. And we’re shifting the AI generally is going to be shift to, sort of, what they call preventative policing, is trying to police before crimes happen. And that’s a very alarming thing. That’s why I mentioned facial recognition. Because if you can monitor, track people based on their information in theory, you can arrest them or control them at an early point. So, I think AI is going to shift to this point of preventative policing but as it does that, I think we are, then, in the area of potentially having a police state.
My last question, Professor Jones: Can you tell us how the audience can distinguish the fake news, the disinformation from the real ones? Because misinformation is really widespread and it’s kind of impossible to recognize whether it is fake or not. So, what can you tell us shortly as recommendations?
There’s no one way to detect AI to disinformation, it’s impossible. But you can start to do things that will help you not be so willing to believe things. For example, let’s say if you use X, if you see a tweet from someone, is that account real? Do they are they linked to any other institution? Does the photo look like a stock photo? Does their timeline consistently talk about the same issues? These are important things to notion about. If it triggers an emotional response in you, there’s a good chance it could be fake. Remember one aspect of disinformation is that it’s designed to make you react either to feel angry, to feel sad, mad or laugh. So, if it triggers an emotional response in you, it could be that it’s trying to manipulate you. So, if you feel a particular way after seeing some information, then, treat it extra carefully. I think that’s the biggest piece of advice I could give you, beware of content that makes you particularly emotional. Because this is what people who design this information are trying to do.
So, you’re mainly recommending all of us to double check anything we see on social media.
No. Triple check.
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INTERVIEW
‘China will be the primary international issue for the second Trump term’
Published
4 days agoon
18/12/2024Guy B. Roberts, one of the most influential figures in the Trump administration, former Assistant Secretary of Defense and former Deputy Secretary General at NATO, spoke to Harici: “China will be, I think, the primary international issue for the United States. The various statements by the leadership in China indicate that there will continue to be a strong push to fully integrate Taiwan within the Chinese political structure. I think that will be one of the big challenges in the first year of the Trump administration.”
Under former President Donald Trump, Guy B. Roberts served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Nuclear, Chemical and Biological Defense Programs and was former Deputy Secretary General at NATO for weapons of mass destruction defense.
Guy B. Roberts answered Dr. Esra Karahindiba’s questions on the expectations for the second Trump term in terms of foreign and domestic policy.
I know that you have been closely working with Donald Trump in his previous cabinet as you were Assistant Deputy Secretary of Defense. You know how his policies were before, and you may foresee how it’s going to continue from January. What is your primary expectation at this point?
Well, it’s actually quite exciting because I think that President Trump has really made it clear that he intends to follow through on all of his campaign promises. He’ll likely focus almost immediately on the immigration issue—the illegal immigration into the United States—and also on revamping the tax structure to maximize tax reductions for middle-class Americans.
On the international side, I fully expect him to put pressure on allies and partners to do more for their defense and meet the commitments they’ve made regarding spending 2% or more of their GDP on defense. That was a key element in his first administration, and I actually was with him at NATO headquarters, where we talked at length about the need for our allies to step up. Once he gets his team in place, I see those things being critical upfront. Of course, the U.S. system is such that it’ll take probably six months before that happens.
Let’s talk about Ukraine. Trump promised to end the Ukraine war, stating he could do so in 24 hours. His aides continue to repeat this claim today. Considering the war is taking a negative turn for Ukraine in recent months, will Trump be able to bring peace to Ukraine? Also, do you think Russian President Vladimir Putin will accept a ceasefire or a peace deal?
That’s the real challenge. I think it’s unrealistic to expect that he can resolve this in 24 hours, as President Trump claims. It’s much more complicated than that. However, I do think he will engage directly with President Putin. I can see that happening, where he’ll pressure Putin to agree to a ceasefire and take steps toward resolving this issue.
Ukraine may not be enthusiastic about giving up territory, but I do think that given the situation in the situation such as the introduction of new weapons systems, the recent intermediate ballistic missiles that Russians fired on Ukraine, Ukraine’s invasion of Kursk region of Russia can set the stage for quid pro quo type of negotiation where each side gives up something at least at the beginning in return for a ceasefire. Peace, I believe, is going to take much longer than 24 hours.
President Biden, nearing the end of his term, has made some significant moves that could complicate things for Trump. For instance, he signed a bill allowing Ukraine to use U.S.-made long-range missiles against Russia. Secondly, he sanctioned Gazprombank, which is crucial for Russian international money transfers and energy trade. Several other banks are placed in sanction list. What is Biden trying to do just before leaving his post? Is he leaving some bombs in the hands of Trump?
I believe that’s certainly in the back of his mind. He’s setting the stage for successful negotiations, whether he wants to give Trump the credit or not. His administration will probably deny that. I do think that given the kinds of things the long-range fires that he’s now authorized in, the additional increases in military hardware that he’s agreed to and his encouragement by other allies to do the same, is helping and will help in arriving at a successful ceasefire negotiation.
About Trump’s upcoming second term presidency, European leaders were not really enthusiastic and they’re not happy. Some of them are not happy that president-elect Trump is going to return to White House. What kind of reorganization do you anticipate from Europe to a new Trump era? From an alliance standpoint, the Secretary General Rutte has been a very enthusiastic supporter and a campaigner, if you will, just like his predecessor, Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg to see that the Allies do more. I think overall they have been doing more. I mean, we’ve had, I believe, over 21 countries now meeting the 2% military spending on GDP, and the others are on the road to doing so. The newer allies, like Finland and Sweden, have shown very robust spending on defense and training, even to the point of producing manuals for the population to undertake certain activities in the event there should actually be a war. That, I think, has deterrence value. The message being sent by the alliance is that we are an alliance, and that if you cross that line and attack any of us, you have to face all of us. Likewise, we have seen in the Indo-Pasific region reaching out to building a coalition with partners in the region including of course Australia and New Zealand but also Vietnam. We just recently sold them some training jets and other countries as well. The Trump Administration will probably be less focused on Alliance building and more focused on one-on-one relationships that are self-supporting in terms of defense. That might be a shift in what we’ll see happening between the Trump and Biden administrations.
You mean that Trump will prefer a personal diplomacy instead of a corporate diplomacy.
Yes, I think whereas Biden administration has been building coalition for example we have The Five Eyes, a group of countries reaching out to build a new interconnected relationship very similar to similar actually to what was attempted back in the late 50s and early 60s of something called SETO, the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization which was tried to mimic the NATO alliance. For a variety of reasons SETO didn’t work out and it fell apart.
But now that be in light of the Chinese aggressive behavior and it’s claims over the South China Sea and other areas, its belligerency against Taiwan and its refusal to agree to or accept the opinions by the international court of justice on the law of sea claims, the Hostile relationship they’ve had with the Philippines, so outlining islands all of that makes that particular region a potential hotspot. The recognition that the only way that there’s going to be an ability to stop and deter China from continuing and acting in that way is to build these relationships. And I think you’ll see a lot of enthusiasm for doing so.
Talking about personal diplomacy and personal relationships how would you describe a potential relationship between Trump and Xi Jinping, Trump and Macron, Trump and President Erdogan?
That’s a very important area, and I’m not sure exactly how the Trump Administration is going to proceed. However, I believe that President Trump places a lot of value on personal relationships with national leaders. That’s why I think he’s more comfortable and will be more comfortable building one-on-one relationships as opposed to forming large partnerships.
I would expect to see much more of this one-on-one approach, with Trump meeting with various presidents and prime ministers throughout the region that he considers key to establishing strategic stability, whether it be in Southeast Asia, the alliance partnership, the Mediterranean, or elsewhere. I think we can expect him to be much more proactive in building personal relationships than we saw in the Biden Administration.
Okay, talking about Trump and Erdoğan, and the cooperation and challenges between the US and Turkey, let’s discuss that a bit. Especially the PYD issue, which is a significant issue for Turkey. The US is trying to beat one terror group by using another, particularly as Turkey is a NATO ally but the US still ignores regarding Ankara’s concerns about the PYD. That’s Turkey’s number one issue.
What do you think about the F-35 issue? Could Turkey rejoin the F-35 program? What do you think about those main issues? And finally, how do you see Turkey’s role as a facilitator in the Middle East, especially in bringing peace to Palestine and ending the war with Israel?
Well, you have just asked me a question that could take the entire day to answer.
Looking at the relationship with Turkey and its leadership, I believe Turkey is a critical partner in ensuring peace and stability in the region. At the same time, there is a lot of turmoil. One major issue is the apparent strengthening of Turkey’s relationships with Russia and China in term long term, which is inconsistent with NATO’s position on Russia’s aggression against Ukraine and Iran’s support for Russia by providing drones and missiles that we’ve already seen used on the battlefield. There’s also significant political turmoil within Turkey at the moment, you know better than I. One unresolved issue is what to do with the two million displaced people as a result of various wars in the region. I think President Trump would be very interested in meeting with Erdoğan to discuss resolving the Syria problem. Trump is likely looking for an exit strategy that would allow US forces to leave that particular area of the Middle East. During the campaign, he referred to such areas as “Forever Wars”, where the US is militarily involved in various regions globally. Regarding Hamas, Hezbollah, and other terrorist groups, those are major challenges. I was very hopeful that the Abraham Accords would be the approach that the whole region would take. This, again, was a Trump initiative during his first administration, involving countries like Israel, the UAE, Sudan, and I believe Morocco. They signed a peace treaty in which they promised to work together to develop economically, scientifically, and in engineering, as well as to maintain and create an environment for peace and security in the region, free from terrorist activities and hatred that have plagued the past several decades. To the point where I saw a country like Saudi Arabia even considering joining this process, it is now all on hold as a result of the Hamas attack on Israel and the response by Israel, which many people consider far excessive to what had happened.
It’s really interesting. I interviewed you in Ankara before, as you may remember. It was a one-hour interview, and we discussed this topic. I don’t want to repeat the same thing; perhaps our audience can watch that episode again. But again, like all the Western discourse, they repeat the same thing as if everything started with the Hamas attack on October 7th. Nobody talks about what has been happening since 1948. Okay, I’m the moderator and the presenter but I want to contribute to this discussion. I really don’t understand why, if the US government is willing to make peace in the region with the Abraham Accords and bring everyone together for a peaceful period, the US does not address Palestine’s need for freedom according to UN resolutions. Under these oppressions since 1948, Palestine has not been given that freedom. The two-state solution is still pending. How many people were injured or killed on October 7? I don’t know the exact number. But now, according to international organizations’ reports, almost 100,000 people have died in Gaza, including those in the West Bank. The West Bank is still witnessing numerous settlements. What do settlements mean? They are taking people’s lands and homes, creating a situation where peace cannot exist. Why doesn’t the US push Israel to implement the two-state solution to bring peace to the Middle East?
Well, that’s a very good question and needs to be addressed. The challenge is that I wouldn’t go back to 1948; I’d go back to 1917 and the Balfour Declaration, which created the environment we are in today. That declaration guaranteed a Jewish homeland. The problem is that you’ve got groups like Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, and others with charters stating that their goal is to exterminate Israel. When that’s a primary goal, it’s very difficult to sit across the table and negotiate a peace agreement. If we got beyond that and all players in the region agreed to Israel’s right to exist, I personally believe that all the issues you mentioned would be subject to negotiation. I think the Israelis would give up quite a bit to have a guarantee that there wouldn’t be hundreds of rockets fired into their territory and that there wouldn’t be terrorist attacks all the time.
Recognition of Israel as a legitimate state with a right to exist would open the door to negotiations. I think everything else would be subject to negotiation, and I think they’d give up a lot. But when you’re at that particular point, and again, you have groups engaging in massive human rights violations—and I certainly wouldn’t put it past the fact that both sides have committed law of war or humanitarian violations—it creates an environment where people are consumed with hatred. As a result, that attitude gets passed on to the next generation, and 10 years from now, we’ll have another intifada or a similar kind of situation where people are already at each other’s throats. To sit here and say, ‘We can come up with a solution’ is absolutely right—we can come up with a solution. But there’s no willingness on the part of anybody to sit down and say, ‘Okay, let’s come up with a good deal.’ And that just doesn’t seem to be happening. I wish it would. I think the Trump administration, again, with President Trump’s personal intervention, has a great opportunity to negotiate some of the things you mentioned as enticement to bring everyone to the table. We’ve had people come to the table before. In the past, we sat down and tried to hammer out agreements regarding weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East or arms control. We came up with some great ideas—they’re all out there. It just takes political will to implement them.
Unfortunately, there is no political will to do it. So, we just have to keep trying and build consensus among the region’s leaders that it’s in their best interest—and the people’s best interest—to sit down and craft a lasting peace. But whether that will happen, I have to say, after 40 years of looking at this issue, the likelihood is that we’ll face another cycle of violence in 10 years. That’s just the way it is in that region.
But we have the reality in the International Criminal Court, which announced an arrest warrant for Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime Minister, because of war crimes. This is the reality—we’re talking about dozens of thousands of people. We always say 50,000 people, but it is almost 100,000 people, and that is really insane. If you don’t want war in the region, the main issue is: with whom do you have war? With Iran, Lebanon, Hezbollah? You don’t like the Muslim Brotherhood, etc., but all of these are connected to the issue of a free state of Palestine. It’s not happening this way. It’s not going to happen. I don’t want to go deep into this discussion because it has no end.
So, in our last five minutes, I’d like to go back to Trump’s foreign policy. He was really pro-Israel in his first term and moved the embassy to Jerusalem. But later on, he also had negative moments with Netanyahu. For the 2024 campaign, he has garnered greater Israeli support this time around. How will this affect his policies towards Iran and the Middle East in general?
Well, yes. I mean, the primary player in the area right now is, in fact, Iran, because it is recognized as the number one supporter of international terrorism. This has been recognized by the Gulf Cooperation Council. They support Hamas and Hezbollah, both identified as international terrorist organizations. Coupled with the firing of rockets from Iran into Israel, which in turn creates an Israeli response, the spiral of violence continues. This needs to be stopped, and there are ways to work towards peaceful coexistence. But as we know, the rhetoric in Iran is “death to Israel, death to the United States.” That kind of attitude does not make peace negotiations conducive. I wish I could give an answer that says, “This is the solution, and it will be embraced by everyone.” But, as you said, we could talk for hours about the problems and challenges in the Middle East. For example, in Lebanon, I’m watching what’s going on, and I’m actually thinking back to 1982 when I was in Lebanon. We had an attempt to maintain peace among the various groups, and then we had the Israelis invading Beirut, creating a siege situation, cutting things off. It feels like déjà vu all over again. How can we stop the cycle of violence? It really is beyond me. I’ve been dealing with this issue for a long time, and every time we came up with solutions, those solutions were quickly ignored. Hatred then became prominent. So, we just have to keep trying and, hopefully, someday we’ll get to that point.
Okay, let’s hope. My last question is on relations with China. Trump’s cabinet has hawkish figures who are strongly against China. Trump promised a 60% tax on China, which is a big concern. How do you think U.S.-China relations will progress under a second Trump term?
China will be, I think, the primary international issue for the United States. China’s long-term strategy is clear, and President Xi has made no secret of his ambition for China to become the world’s hegemon by 2049. They made statements to that effect and don’t hide it. They have a very aggressive policy of reaching out to multiple countries to build relationships through loans and various other economic incentives. They have also made claims in the South China Sea, which are very destabilizing. These claims are inconsistent with recognized international law of the sea. They have tried to harass many countries in the region over their territorial sea claims.
This has resulted in countries like Vietnam building a strong relationship with the United States. During one of my last trips as Assistant Secretary of Defense to Hanoi, I found the Vietnamese very enthusiastic about working with the U.S especially on defense sector. Other countries in the region feel the same way due to Chinese encroachment and bullying. China has also built a strong global network, acquiring port facilities in the Panama Canal, the Suez Canal area, the Straits of Malacca, and other choke points. They have created a very strong presence which in a hostile environment could be a way to strangle the world economy. We see these kinds of things happening and recognize within the United States that there are activities on the part of China that have a negative impact on national security and the collective security relationship around the world. I think we’ll see a much more active and proactive confrontation of China on these issues. There are some very big flashpoints or hot points, with Taiwan probably being the number one at the moment. The various statements by the leadership in China indicate that there will continue to be a strong push to fully integrate Taiwan within the Chinese political structure. I think that will be one of the big challenges in the first year of the Trump administration.
INTERVIEW
‘Indigenous peoples standing to fight against colonialism and imperialism’
Published
2 weeks agoon
10/12/2024In Venezuela, as well as in much of Latin America that was colonized by the Spanish empire more than five centuries ago, the month of October represents a date to remember and take pride in the indigenous roots of the American continent, called by the ancestral peoples “Abya Yala”. However, even today, 500 years after the arrival of Christopher Columbus, Spain continues without recognizing the genocide of the native peoples and their cultures, nor does it recognize the plundering of the riches of these lands. Currently, the empire is represented by another hegemonic power, the United States, and by another type of colonialism, the culture of the “American Dream” that seems more like a nightmare, but the threat to indigenous peoples, as well as Afro-descendant peoples that makes up Venezuela, continues to be the same. And in the face of this imperial and colonialist threat, Venezuela and other countries of the Abya Yala are struggling, resisting and winning the battle.
Within the framework of the Day of Indigenous Resistance in Venezuela, which since 2002 has been commemorated every October 12, we interviewed Clara Vidal, Minister of Indigenous Peoples of Venezuela. Vidal is originally from the Kariña indigenous people, based in the state of Sucre, eastern Venezuela, and has been Minister for Indigenous Peoples since 2022.
Why does Venezuela commemorate the Day of Indigenous Resistance?
Today we reflect on the importance of that tragic date, while today Spain commemorates a national holiday, they call it “Hispanic Day”, with joy, with airplanes, etc. That is, Spain celebrates the death of 90 million indigenous people, they are celebrating the greatest genocide in the history of humanity.
But we from Venezuela commemorate the 532 years of the beginning of the resistance of the indigenous peoples who to this day are in battle for a horizon and a victorious future that awaits us.
So today’s reflection is that nothing and no one, not the Spanish monarchy, nor the decadent U.S. empire will be able to defeat us, because 200 years ago we expelled them from these lands, because we do not want more colonialism or imperialism, we want to be sovereign, free and independent.
What are the references of the indigenous peoples in Venezuela today? And what is its importance?
Well, let me say that we are today in the land of Commander Hugo Chávez, of the Liberator Simón Bolívar, of the Great Chief of Chiefs Cacique Guaicaipuro, the leader of the resistance of the indigenous peoples, because 532 years ago took place the invasion of our lands, and practically 90 million indigenous brothers were exterminated by an European Empire.
Precisely, according to what we have experienced and what our ancestors experienced, we can say that we are a free, sovereign and independent country, that throughout our history we are not going to allow any empire to controls us, dominates us, and that is why we have among our main historical references, which we must always remember:
- The fight of the indigenous Cacique Guaicaipuro, our older brother.
- Then the fight for our emancipation from the Liberator Simón Bolívar, and
- More recently, the rescue of our freedom through our eternal Commander, Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías, who after that “For now” of February 4, 1992, and assuming our presidency in 1999, has rescued our freedom, our sovereignty, our independence for the present and for our national future.
The Bolivarian Revolution, what role has it given to the indigenous peoples?
Well, the Bolivarian Revolution gave us the main thing, which is the guarantee of the rights of indigenous peoples. The arrival of the Revolution fought and ensured that each of our indigenous peoples had a special chapter within the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela of 1999. That is where the great appreciation of our revolutionary process towards the recognition and respect of rights begins. of indigenous peoples. In addition to that, the thousands of tools that it has given us as public policies: the Guaicaipuro Mission, the Ministry of Popular Power for Indigenous Peoples, which at an international level is a unique experience. Venezuela is a pioneer in having an institution especially for indigenous peoples, other countries now have ministries, like Brazil, for example, but we paved the way.
In addition to that, we have legislators, in the municipal councils, councilors, we have national deputies, who are indigenous. We have our voice represented before the national, regional and municipal Legislative Power.
The presence of the United States in Latin America
The presence of agencies of imperialism such as the CIA, DEA, or NATO, among other interventionist institutions in Latin America, must be considered according to the excess of their functions. The United States acts not as a country but as an interfering organization in the internal policies of each of the nations.
The United States intervenes in the policies of each of the nations, that is, violating the sovereignty of the people. And the most important thing is that they do not respect the culture and idiosyncrasies of each of the peoples.
Precisely, when we refer to colonialism, unlike imperialism, it is about dominating and controlling and imposing their culture, belittling the cultures of the native peoples. Now, when we talk about imperialism, this is total control, from every point of view: political, social, cultural, military of each of the peoples and nations.
From there the United States and Europe then fall into fascism, neo-fascism and similar expressions. From Venezuela, the indigenous peoples: Say no to the imperial presence in our lands and nations!
Imperialism in neo-fascist governments in Latin America attacks indigenous peoples
The indigenous peoples are brave peoples, in those countries with extreme right-wing, neo-fascist governments, the indigenous peoples have been totally criminalized or have been totally forgotten, denied to exercise their own culture in their own territories. Today we can tell you, from Venezuela, that the indigenous peoples are not alone, and we also encourage them to continue the fight for their rights. The right-wing and neo-fascist governments will never, ever love indigenous peoples, because they want to erase our history.
Those governments will never protect any rights of indigenous peoples. The Venezuelan left, Bolivarian socialism, has been a fundamental part of the demands of all these sectors, mainly indigenous peoples and communities, as well as Afro-descendants, because we are the same people, the oppressed peoples. So to the indigenous peoples of Abya Yala we say that the fight must continue until we get the victory. Venezuela is proof that it is possible to recover our identity, our rights and our indigenous culture.
Imperialism and genocidal colonialism in the world: Genocide in Gaza
We call on the world, the international community, and national and international public opinion to reflect on what is happening in Gaza. Just as today there is genocide in Gaza, against the people of Palestine, we also remember what we experienced more than 500 years ago. Just as it happens today with the Palestinian people, so it happened with our ancestors, just as yesterday our ancestors had victory, because we are alive today. Today we declare our solidarity and tell the people of Palestine that they will also win, because in the face of hatred, in the face of imperialism, in the face of colonialism, love and justice will always win. So today’s reflections are that we continue fighting, because victory belongs to the people who fight for their emancipation.
We are going to remember this date as the beginning of the greatest genocide in the history of humanity so that there can never again be any empire that can raise its arm and its hatred against the people, to impose the slavery of man by man, but rather there is peace, hope as we are proposing from the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela with our constitutional president, Nicolás Maduro.
What is the message that Venezuela gives to other indigenous peoples?
To the brother peoples of the South, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, and also of great Brazil, because in Brazil there are also indigenous peoples, indigenous brothers and sister who were also invaded by Portugal like us; Today we tell all of you that this is the time of the people, we are going to unite, we are going to create a network of networks. The historical block necessary so that this decadent empire, or any other that may emerge, can never again defeat us.
They have tried today with the Internet, with artificial intelligence, to oppress us, but here we say that with the ancestral human intelligence of indigenous peoples they will not be able to win. Here we are fighting. Let no one make a mistake, because there is a homeland here, as Commander Chávez said. So all our ancestors today are together, united to say enough of imperialism and colonialism. Victory will be of the people! Long live the people! Long live the indigenous peoples! Long live peace and long live freedom!
Finally, what is the importance of the union of indigenous peoples and Afro-descendant peoples in Venezuela
On this important day, Venezuela shows the rest of the indigenous peoples of Latin America its struggle and its resistance. Today, 532 years after the great genocide in Abya Yala, here we are, the indigenous peoples present alongside the Afro-descendant people, the indigenous people in general, the Venezuelan people of men and women who continue to resist. Today we can say with a firm voice, with a voice of love and with a voice of joy, that we continue in resistance.
We continue in a tireless fight for the vindication of our indigenous peoples. And that today in Venezuela we have more than 54 indigenous peoples, that means that we have resisted and that we will continue to resist and win.
Afro-descendant peoples have also fought a battle to survive and assert their rights. And here we are claiming the day of indigenous resistance, but we are also fighting for that ancestral history of the Afro-descendant peoples who were the object of imperial ambition, and which forcibly brought them here, but which today has precisely led us to walk the hand making revolution.
We are now writing a new history, because we were here before the Spanish empire arrived, because the indigenous peoples were on this land, because the men and women who arrived enslaved now have a new horizon, precisely, which is not to forget history, our origins, but that we also know that our destiny is to definitively free ourselves from the yoke of imperialism, to emancipate ourselves from our minds and move forward towards the new generations with the vision of knowing that we are a people that resisted and that continues to resist because Nobody discovered us. We already existed.
INTERVIEW
‘The majority of the European politicians are pro-war’
Published
3 weeks agoon
03/12/2024Hungarian Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó told Harici: ‘In the European Union, the majority of European politicians are in favour of war. Since we are not a pro-war but a pro-peace government, it is clear that we do not fit into the current mainstream of European foreign policy.’
Responding to Dr. Esra Karahindiba’s questions, the Hungarian minister harshly criticised the majority of EU member states for their ‘non-peaceful’ policies, and also commented on President Biden’s decision to allow Ukraine to use US-made ballistic missiles against Russia and the US sanctions on Gazprombank.
Excellency Minister, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us. Let’s start with the criticism against Hungary by the EU. You are accused of not adhering to the European Union’s common foreign policy. What is your response to this, and how was your experience during your presidency of the Council of the European Union?
Unfortunately, those European politicians are in a majority in the European Union who are in favor of the war. Since we are not a pro-war but a pro-peace government, it is obvious that we are not falling in line with the current European foreign policy mainstream. We have been standing up for a ceasefire and peace negotiations to be started. The majority of the European politicians are pro-war. They make measures which are putting the risk of escalation higher and higher. So definitely, we will not align with that. We will continue our peace efforts, and we hope that, as President Trump enters into the White House in January next year, internationally speaking, pro-peace politicians will gain more strength.
When I interviewed you at the Antalya Diplomacy Forum, you told me about that, and you told me that you believe if Trump is elected, peace is possible between Ukraine and Russia. Now Trump is the president-elect, and as you said, he’s going to take his post in January. Are you in contact with the Trump Administration, and are you taking any initiatives for making peace between the two countries? What are the items on your agenda, and what are you negotiating about?
Look, after President Trump has been elected, he has called our Prime Minister, congratulated him, and they agreed that the upcoming four years will be a golden age from the perspective of US-Hungary relations. You know, there are very strict regulations in the United States when it comes to a transition period, so the serious negotiations, the substantial negotiations between us and the Trump Administration will get started, obviously, right after President Trump enters the White House. There are some issues on the agenda already which we discussed way before, but for example, the Democrat Administration has terminated the bilateral tax treaty with Hungary. We hope that this will come into force again. The US Democrat Administration has restricted the access of Hungarian citizens to the ESTA visa system or a kind of visa system. We hope that with the Trump Administration entering into power, we will get back the status where we used to be. Of course, we hope that President Trump generally will carry out a policy which will help peace return to the Central European region and will allow a much better atmosphere in Europe to be created.
Frankly speaking, what is your position about Ukraine’s territorial integrity regarding Crimea and the Donbas region? Because those regions could be the number one condition for Russia to make peace.
Well, territorial integrity and sovereignty are principles that must be respected. On the other hand, I think sequence is important. First, a ceasefire has to take place, then peace negotiations have to be started, and then a peace deal must be made.
Talking about energy issues, today you joined the Istanbul Energy Forum here and had bilateral talks with several counterparts. Hungary announced that it signed an additional contract with Gazprom to use the Turkish Stream pipeline at full capacity. What do you expect from this development?
Look, Russia is a reliable partner when it comes to energy supplies. Turkey is a very reliable partner when it comes to transit. So, it is our honor that we can work together with Turkey and Russia in order to guarantee the security of energy supplies for Hungary. What we expect is that with the increased volumes, the price gets more competitive. Obviously, we have a very important program in Hungary through which we ensure that Hungarian families and households pay the lowest price when it comes to utilities. These additional contracts signed between Gazprom and our gas trading company are essential from the perspective of keeping the utility costs low in Hungary.
Let’s keep on the energy issue. I know that, as an observing member of the Organization of Turkic States, your term in the EU Council presidency is very important to be a bridge between these two regions. Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan are very eager, and actually, the EU is very eager to buy energy from these two countries. There are dozens of billions of dollars of infrastructure expected by the EU to be invested in this OTS region. What are the latest numbers? What is the latest development on that?
When it comes to the Turkic region or the Caucasian or Central Asian region, we do consider those regions as possible sources of future energy deliveries. We definitely count on the so-called Middle Green Corridor project to be successful, through which electricity from renewable sources from Azerbaijan and Georgia will be delivered to Central Europe through Romania to Hungary. We also count on gas from Azerbaijan to play a bigger role in our national energy mix. For that, the bottleneck is the capacity of the Southeast European pipeline network. But we do hope that we can increase the capacity in a way that allows us to increase the role of gas from Azerbaijan and the gas from Turkey in our national energy mix.
The Middle Corridor is gaining so much importance as the northern route is not being able to be used now, as you said. Meanwhile the Biden Administration, just before leaving office, has made its last steps and gave Ukraine permission to use US missiles against Russia. Russian leader Putin says “nothing will remain unanswered”. How do you see the upcoming future?
This is really dangerous. This definitely goes against the interests of the people in Central Europe. This definitely goes against the will of the American people since the American people have elected a different administration. They have elected a pro-peace president. So, I think it’s really dangerous what the current American Administration is doing. These measures can lead to an escalation, and we do hope that by January 20, we can somehow avoid escalation. Then, when President Trump takes office, hopefully, he will still have the chance to make peace. I do hope that the current Democrat Administration will not make it totally impossible to make peace in January.
My last question: what is your take on the Istanbul Energy Forum? What was your agenda here, and what are the expected outcomes for Hungary, Turkey, and other counterparts with whom you have had bilateral talks?
The most short-term duty of ours is now to overcome the challenges put forward by the US Administration’s decision to put Gazprombank on a sanctions list, since we are paying for the gas to the accounts of Gazprombank, as many other countries here in the region are. So, here we came together to find out how to overcome this challenge. I’m pretty sure that since we are united, we will find a way to overcome that and ensure the security of supplies in the future as well.
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