Interview
‘Europe can be a bridge between the Global South and the US’
Prof. Franco Bruni, the President of Italian Institute for International Political Studies spoke to Harici: “I think Europe could be helpful because by gaining some strategic autonomy from the United States, we could pay special attention to the global South and get the global South to make a bridge with us and, through us, with the Americans also.”
Professor Franco Bruni, President of ISPI, Italian Institute for International Political Studies, one of the world’s leading think tanks in the field of international relations and economics founded in Italy in 1934, discussed critical issues such as the current dynamics of the global economy, Trump’s challenges, the challenges facing Europe, the Draghi report and the injustices of representation in international organisations.
Opening the doors of ISPI to Harici, Professor Bruni gave a comprehensive overview of his views on many topics such as conflicts within the European Union, the role of BRICS and the clash of global economic blocs.
Professor Bruni says that Europe can bridge the gap between the Global South and the Global North. Ukraine, on the other hand, could be given territory in Russian-populated areas in order to make Putin feel that he has won a victory in order to sit at the negotiating table. Here is the full interview:
Please tell me what do you mean by your opinion that Europe could be a bridge between the Global South and the Global. Can you open up this?
I think that the world can be thought of as divided into three really sort of independent blocks. One is the West, the other is China, which makes its role part, and the rest is the Global South. Formally, the Global South includes China, but that’s just formally because the leader of the Global South is India really, and I don’t think their relationship with China is that perfect. Moreover, Russia is in the middle and it’s clearly with China. So, you have China and Russia on one side, the Global South, which is also South because China is also north, and then you have the West.
And we don’t find a way to really multilateralization of the world have a governance which pays full respect to all sides. So, we have to break the game and start again in a way after this disastrous world is coming out. And I think Europe could be helpful because by gaining some strategic autonomy from the United States, we could pay special attention to the global South and get the global South to make a bridge with us and, through us, with the Americans also; and in a sense, also re-approaching diplomatically China. I’m not talking about Russia because Russia is out of, in this moment, completely out of any discourse. I mean, it’s a country which is dying by this war.
I look at China, not at Russia. This is what Europe could do: to diplomatically be very near to India, very near to countries like Egypt. Clearly I’m not talking about Türkiye because Türkiye, in a way, I think it’s part of Europe, but certainly, if you keep Türkiye as an independent country from Europe, Türkiye is one of our basic relationships that we must exploit in order to have a bridge with the South. But countries like Egypt, like all the Arab states, South America—I mean, these are crucial countries that constitute a group which has nothing really in common except one very important thing, which is the desire to participate in the world in an independent way without being with one block or the other block. This is a very precious quality, and we should sort of exploit it to help the world to get a truly multilateral governance. It’s going to be extremely difficult, and we can only do this piece by piece, year by year, but the strategy must be there.
How do you think Europe can be independent from the US? Because now in your speech again, you referred to that, and it is one of my questions. What do you think about the discussions about European autonomy? Is it really possible for Europe to be independent, have its own autonomy? Can Europe do something without the consent of the US?
Certainly, I think this is positive, and we did many things. Look, for instance, in trade, we are fully independent. We are able to combat a trade war. We have an antitrust system in Europe that prevents American companies from exaggerating in exploiting monopolistic powers in Europe. So, we have several fields where we have our autonomy.
Obviously, what I mean is strategic autonomy. It doesn’t mean to break the alliances. The important thing is that the alliances are true alliances so that we decide together, and we have full reciprocal respect. But this requires that Europe is much more united. As soon as Europe is able to express its strategy in a uniform and united way, immediately the alliance with the United States will become much more balanced. So, we can be allied, but having lots of autonomy also in proposing to the US different ways of action and speaking at the same level.
The problem is that now you have the US on one side, which is one big thing, and in Europe, you have these little governments and states that fight one against the other—France against Germany. And this is the problem. So, we’re not talking about autonomy in an aggressive way or saying we are going to be outside. For instance, we can have a full alliance in terms of defense, like your country has. By the way, you are in the NATO system, so Türkiye is in the NATO system, but you have a lot of autonomy, strategic autonomy, and you exploit it very well. So, we can have strong alliances with the United States in many fields, but be autonomous enough to contribute to world diplomacy in an autonomous way.
Then my other question is also about the US and President Trump and his threats to Europe about the trade tariffs. Do you think it will work? Whenever he wants to teach a country something, he’s using his trade stick.
It’s more a strategic weapon. But I don’t think he will exert this or put the tariffs at the level he is threatening to do. I don’t think, especially with Europe, simply because the United States is full of large firms, important firms, powerful businessmen, etc., that do not like this and don’t want to. They are very open. Their firm’s profits depend on the fact that there is full trade integration in the world.
I think that Trump will use in a very effective way his threats of tariffs, but, for instance, one thing that could happen is that he points at specific products and puts tariffs on that. This is different from a full tariff war, and we can reciprocate because we have specific tariffs we can put on American products, and therefore we have our weapons. The point is that even there Europe must be united. In this case, Europe has the power to be united because, as you know, trade policies are centralized in Brussels, so the commission has full authority to maneuver with tariffs. Unity in theory is already there. The problem is that even the commission wants to be in agreement with the major countries so that if France starts diverging from Germany in trade issues, it’s going to be very difficult for the commission to act.
This is—we’re going to see. Anyway, I had a meeting at the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Rome. I was on video, and, well, the idea is that it’s going to be a bit of a mystery what is going to happen.
What do you expect from Trump era’s global politics? On the one hand, you have Western global economic blocks like G7. On the other hand, there’s now BRICS emerging. Some people are hopeful about BRICS, and some people criticize, asking what has BRICS achieved until now. Now Middle Eastern and Gulf countries are also being part of BRICS. This multibillionaire countries are in BRICS. BRICS is getting really stronger. Türkiye is eager to join too, but Trump recently made a declaration that anybody, any country, any person who wishes to reduce the power of the US dollar will be punished. What do you think about this global economic war and the clashes between these global economic blocks of the West and the East?
One thing we can immediately say is the issue of the dollar—the dollar being the privilege of the United States and the idea that somebody could compete with the dollar is not possible. I don’t think that this is a fruitful way for the BRICS. It doesn’t make any sense. You can have an independent circulation of another currency like the Chinese currency, but it’s going to be only to pay for goods and to cash what you get from exports.
As soon as you have assets and you want to invest them, you have to go to the States because this is the only place where you can find a menu of activities, a menu of financial assets that satisfies anybody—short, long, risky, less risky, everything. Moreover, as soon as you have an investment in the US, you can take it away when you want. It’s liquid, large, big, accepted all over the place. There’s no way for China to compete with the United States in this—no way. Absolutely.
I mean, they have controls; they have a political climate that is frightening for any investor. So, the renminbi can be useful, can have its own circulation in the East, in the Southeast, but it’s just circulating money. You can use it for doing the payments or keeping the wealth. As soon as you have assets and wealth to keep, you cannot keep your wealth in a sustainable way in that country. Even the euro is a problem in this sense because Europe is divided. Financial regulations are different in different countries, and when a Chinese investor wants to invest in Europe, investing in Italy is different than investing in France or Germany because banks are regulated in different ways, and the liquidity of the markets is very different.
The euro at the moment cannot even—cannot flank the dollar. So, the dollar is the dollar, full stop, for the moment. Then, when financial markets all over the world will be free, flexible, modern, well-regulated, and safe, then we might have a single currency at the global level. And that currency is not going to be issued by the States; it will be issued by a multilateral organization like the IMF or something similar.
The BRICS, when they talk about money and monetary matters, are really weakening their points. Sometimes, they are even, a little funny. It’s like theater. Look at what happened between Brazil and Argentina when they wanted to separate themselves from the dollar circuit. Nobody wants to put their money in Argentina, so it doesn’t make sense. It’s better to concentrate on real things, not on money.
Another thing that might be of interest is the issue of sustainability and the green transition. This is something that Trump criticizes and would like to stop, as he did or tried to do in his previous presidency. This can be worrying, but as far as I understand, he will find a lot of opposition—mainly from firms. In Europe, firms are moving sufficiently fast toward a green transition. They are fond of it in a sense; they are investing and following the rules. In America, also, large companies are like that. In certain states, the green transition is in progress. So, I doubt that Trump’s war against the green transition can be successful. It might slow it down a bit and give some voice to opposition, but in the end, it will fail.
The consciousness of the fact that if you don’t provide a sustainable green transition, we are going to face enormous problems is now very clear to everyone. Look at the costs of climate damage—it’s incredible. Banks are understanding this; they are measuring it. Central banks are putting rules in place and want to know the risk that each firm runs by having a plant near a river, the sea, or a mountain, or in a risky area.
If this happens, the interest rate for loans to such firms will be higher. So, the tendency of the economy to move in this direction is clear—faster or slower, but it will move. This process is going independently of Trump or general public opinion. This is my idea. Sometimes, I even see friends who are skeptical about the green transition when we’re having coffee together. But when I see them at work, they act as strict managers, pushing the green transition very seriously. So, I tend to be optimistic about this.
Please tell me: do you see any positive sides in BRICS? Because you said it is weak considering monetary policies and common currency issues. But do you see anything positive? You are a professor focusing on the global South. Considering the role of the global South in the global arena, which role do you give to BRICS?
The role of BRICS is the role they want to perform: to establish a different type of governance at the global level. Each country has to be represented for its true weight in the global economy.
For example, take the governance of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the United Nations, or other international multilateral agencies. The way we regulate large markets—the ocean, the green transition, etc.—must ensure that decisions are not dominated by one or two blocks while forgetting the rest of the world, particularly the global South.
The global South’s presence at the right tables is essential. This is the only real aim of BRICS, apart from rhetoric, that makes sense. Otherwise, what do Argentina and Türkiye have in common? Or Egypt and Vietnam? They are culturally and socially different, with different aims and tendencies.
It’s not like the West, where people watch the same movies in Milan and Florida. BRICS countries are very different, but they make sense as a group because they can help re-equilibrate the world.
Take the IMF: its governance and the number of votes do not correspond to the actual weight of individual countries in the global economy. China doesn’t have the number of votes that reflect its weight. The same goes for India, Brazil, and Egypt.
We need to increase these countries’ weight in the IMF and their role in the United Nations, the International Labor Organization, the World Health Organization, and other global governance platforms.
The Global South must actively demand its representation. This is the only meaningful way to understand the concept of the global South. Otherwise, it’s just rhetoric. They can protest because they are forgotten and criticize the lack of help for poor countries to manage their debts and survive.
Look at the problems of the poor countries in the world. There are 40 to 70 very poor, heavily indebted countries today. These countries need help for several years now. Economists have developed proposals, techniques, and ideas to address this, but nothing is done quickly enough. There are proposals, there are techniques. Economies have developed and elaborated a lot of ideas. There is a possibility to do it, but nothing is done quickly enough to solve the situation. So this is what—and it’s a common interest because even the United States, or Europe, or all the lenders, as usual, have an interest in the fact that the borrowers can repay their debts.
Fixing this problem and relaunching the growth of countries that are today too poor to sustain their life in the world is a common interest. It has to be pursued by a multilateral organization. And the BRICS—BRICS excluding China or with China, depending on certain issues—
Europe can act as a broker because we understand these dynamics better than Americans do, normally and obviously. Sometimes even a sacrifice is needed. For example, Europe holds more votes in the IMF than it deserves. We should give up some of these votes to BRICS and then use our remaining voting power more effectively as a united bloc.
Europe has instruments to broker agreements with BRICS, even making sacrifices to achieve results. This can lead to a new approach to multilateralism.
The government in France is also on the verge of collapse due to the budget crisis. Is it possible that the EU’s two most indebted countries will be dragged into a Greek-style debt crisis? On the other hands, in Italy, the government’s budget plan has sparked debate and strikes. It calls for increased purchasing power for wages and pensions, and more funding for health, education, public services and industrial policies. What do you think of the budget plan?
Well, let me say first one thing on Greece, on the Greek example. The Greek example is famous because apparently European authorities and the IMF have dealt with Greece in a bad way. And they caused a lot of suffering. Now this is true, but it is also true that at the end, Greece was able to profit from the enormous financial help that we gave.
And I was recently in Cairo and there was a big conference. And what the Egyptians did was to invite Greek people from the treasury, from the parliament, from the political parties and from the think-tanks. And they organized an entire morning on Greece, citing Greece as a potential example for Egypt in getting out from a debt trap. And these Greeks that are now in power, they were explaining the way they did it in the last ten years. They were able gradually to get out and now they are in much better form. And I asked very squarely the question, but look, what about this fact that apparently the IMF in Europe has made you suffer enormously and this was counterproductive? And they answered in a very unexpected way. “Yes, we suffered a lot. We probably could have suffered less if the approach would have been different. But suffering was indispensable for solving our problems and we were able to solve our problems. So, now we are much better off.” And this was important because Egypt was learning that you can be rigorous with finance, suffer a bit, but getting out of the problem and attracting capital.
Now as France and Italy, it’s a totally different story. We have so large countries, so large debts. So as soon as we have difficulties, we will be under the control of European financial help, the central bank, the commission. So, it’s going to be a problem at that point of re-managing our countries. My impression is that if we don’t do before our tasks our homework and reorganize our public finance in a sustainable way, we will do this anyway under the control of the European Central Bank, the commission, and I think it’s difficult to do these things without the IMF. So, because you know, nobody can allow France or Italy to have a true financial crisis. It’s impossible to bear.
Look what happened in 2010, 2011. Greece failed, Ireland failed, Portugal failed, Spain, not the whole country but the banking system failed, and Cyprus. All these countries were bankrupt basically and were, say, officially bankrupt. They were not able to repay their debts. They were helped and re-managed by the international community. But the worst situation at that time was the Italian one. Because we had the largest problem in terms of public debt and speculative attack. And we were the biggest country there. So, officially, we were not bankrupt but we were helped very, very much.
We were being helped in many ways including the fact that they’ve changed the rules in Europe. They admitted that the central bank can officially help a country that proves to be constructive in solving its debt crisis.
So, regarding my questions about France and Italy’s budget today, you said that it is not a problem because this country cannot be bankrupt.
They cannot be bankrupt. I was looking at what’s happening to the spread of France these hours, to the interest rates on long-term debt. And you can see clearly that when it comes a certain time during the morning, the price of long-term bonds of France -and also Italy are the same- but France is currently much more under speculation than Italy. The price of bonds, which is going down the very first part of the morning, second part of the morning, comes up.
The reason is we cannot say this officially but since the central bank is buying, I’m sure. And at the end we can see this statistically because once every month, there is a statistic where the central bank is obliged to show how many bonds it has purchased or sold. And if you analyze carefully this data, you can discover that they are clearly manipulating for stabilizing this. So, I think that politicians in both countries must sooner or later discipline themselves and suffer some costs of austerity and readjustment. Otherwise somebody else will come up and do it for them.
Among the suggestions put forward in the report prepared by Mario Draghi to make the EU competitive again with the US and China is the issue of joint borrowing. He proposes joint borrowing. France and Italy want this but it is not okay for Germany. It is not okay for Netherlands. What do you think of the suggestions in the Draghi report?
I am a very good friend of Draghi. Well, in fact we gave him the ISPI prize. I like the report. It is full of good ideas. At the end, it is convincing in saying that there is no way to do what we have to do to be competitive if we don’t borrow together. But, I have a big “but”. One should also emphasize the fact that maybe with a slower rhythm, but we must spend less at the national level. We must have less debt at the national level. And in a certain sense, I criticize Draghi because he doesn’t say this. I know he thinks this, but he doesn’t say this in an explicit way. Borrowing together means that we spend together also. Okay, but this must not be only additional expenses. We have to give up something at the national level, bring some of our expenditure under the authority of Brussels, save something so that the global debt, including national debt, doesn’t grow very, very much. And the idea of Draghi is that there is this concept of “good debt”. And good debt is the debt that you can do but because it is productive. And I agree that it is productive. If you go into debt to spend in a useful thing, it’s going to be a deal at the end. But, in the meantime, the markets will not follow you. So, you can have a very good debt, but you cannot have it too large. Because, at the end, the market doesn’t look very much to the fact that after 5 or 10 years, your debt will be productive.
From now to the next 5 years, the market must support you and must believe that you really are going to reimburse this thing. And in order to do so, you must show some financial discipline. You must give up something in order to spend in other things.
So, I am fully positive on the idea of having joint borrowing. I think Germans are fairly confused. I mean, they don’t even want their own debt to increase. They want this “zero budget” rule that doesn’t make any macroeconomic sense. Because, at least, the national debt must grow at the same rhythm as GDP. And in order to grow, you have to have more debt. Because, otherwise, the ratio between debt and GDP goes to zero. Because GDP grows and debt stays put. It doesn’t make sense.
So, you have to abolish this rule. And Germans are understanding this. So, sooner or later, things will change in Germany in this sense. So, it’s fine to have more debt and have it as a global debt together. But there must be something that officially centralizes certain expenditures and takes away financial autonomy from national debt. Because, otherwise, you add debt to debt, add debt to debt. In the end, the markets will not accept it. Also, because these debts are in Euros, as I say. And if they are in Euros, then you don’t follow another important suggestion of both Letta and Draghi.
That is, unify capital markets. If you don’t unify capital markets, they don’t even will buy this debt. By the way, this is what happened to the joint debts that we made for the COVID crisis. We issued this common debt to finance the Next Generation EU program. But the interest rate on these bonds happens to be very high compared, for instance, to German debt. The reason is that the market is not liquid.
When a Chinese wants to buy one of these securities, he doesn’t know exactly who is the real debtor, where is the market where he can sell and buy these things, how many, even when JP Morgan buys one of these securities, they don’t know how large will this market be. Because, okay, we issued that today, but what about tomorrow? So, we have really to make deep reforms to make the Euro market uniform, united, a big pool of funds. And this is what Draghi argues very well in the report.
So, you have to do this, and then you can issue debt in common and be credible and have low interest rates. Otherwise, the Chinese, at the end, they will buy this debt only at a discount, because it’s not that liquid. If they want to invest their money better, they buy US treasuries. I mean, why should they buy this if there’s no public finance behind it? So, it’s very important to make unification of capital markets and then some transfer of expenditure, so that the national debts decrease and common debt increases. But the fact that Draghi doesn’t have the courage to insist on the fact that we have to decrease national debts in a much more rigorous way, I think it’s a mistake. He should have insisted also on this.
Let’s talk more about Europe. French Prime Minister Michel Barnier emphasized strengthening France-Italy ties. This emphasis was interpreted as a sign that France increasingly sees Italy as a partner in EU matters. Will Italy take on such a role? France also needs some partners because in some cases in Brussels it feels not backed enough. What is Italy’s position regarding France’s global international policies and European policies? Where does Italy see France?
Well, Italy is sort of a vague concept. We have a government which is now different from the governments we had in the past. And so the Italian government now has a different idea of Europe. But for instance, I don’t know, ISPI for instance, or researchers and thinkers in ISPI have different ideas. So in this way, what really has to be stressed is that it’s not an issue of France and Italy. The issue is Europe.
We have to put together our countries in a common policy and this has to be done as quickly as possible. The problem is that France is a difficult country in dealing with foreign policies because they are rhetorically very, in particular Macron is, rhetorically very pro-Europe. But then when you come to concrete issues, they always are very much nationalistic.
So look at the defence issue. The defence issue is now very important and we want to sort of build a common defence system. We want to put in common defence strategies and form a substantial European army, etc. And France is crucial because they are the most powerful military power in the European Union.
Italy is not bad too in defense production.
No, we have good producers of arms, but certainly our army is much, much weaker than the French army. I mean, France is a nuclear power, has a very strong army, super technologies in the army. So they are much more powerful than we are. Moreover, they are in the United Nations Security Council. So they are extremely powerful in terms of military power. And they tend to keep it. For instance, they would never give up their position in the United Nations Security Council. And this prevents Europe to have its role in the Security Council. We should be represented by one person coming from Brussels.
And I think Germany would approve of this. Italy, perhaps not with the current government, is going to be a bit more difficult. But I think that at the end, we would approve. Spain would approve. But France wouldn’t approve. Maybe they would say yes, but then they would put a lot of difficulties.
In Türkiye, President Erdogan says the world is bigger than five, referring to the United Nations Security Council. This motto became widespread in the World. Many others also discuss that the UN needs reform, UNSG needs reform, but how should be the UNSG reformed regarding the way it operates. In your case, France practically does not represent the whole continent of Europe. So, can you tell me how the representation should be amended? Should the new international organizations such as BRICS have also representation in the UNSG?
Well, it’s a question of having a larger group of countries and not full unanimity. So a larger group of countries having a decision power that currently is with the Security Council. Or if you want to increase the powers of the Assembly, which includes everybody, and changing the weight of the countries. And Europe should act together, should be represented as a single country. Somebody from Brussels should represent the EU in the UNSG.
And so, but currently there are lots of proposals. They are discussing a bit. Italy has its own documents. But I think it’s irrelevant because it’s a confusion. And the crucial point is that there’s no agreement on changing the current situation.
Why do you think Italy’s proposal is complicated? What does it say?
To give more room to the Global South. But Italy cannot express a proposal which is too different from what can be agreed in Europe given that we have France in the Security Council. Moreover, we have this question of the British. Because, you know, Britain was in the Union previously. And it’s no longer there. And now we’re going to see what happens with the United Kingdom because with Trump, who knows, maybe that Trump manages to sort of eat the United Kingdom and put it also from the military power completely on their side, as they are now. But perhaps also something different could happen and the opposite could happen that is, the United Kingdom being near to Europe, also in geographical terms, and having the same threats from the East, etc., maybe she can be re-approached by Europe also on military issues. At the moment, this is what is happening. During the last months, there’s been a very important re-approach of the British defence system in Europe. We had different strategies about Ukraine. The UK are much more sort of radical. We are more prudent, if you want. But even trend can change now.
Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni also didn’t like the fact that the US President Biden approved the use of US-made ballistic missiles can be used against Russia by Ukraine just before he leaves his post. She found it risky and provocative.
This probably has been a mixture of propaganda and inertia of the Biden administration. It’s probably a mistake, diplomatically speaking. And it’s not really happening. Because as you see, Zelensky keeps saying we don’t have the arms to win the war.
But Zelensky said we waited 12 months to receive this ballistic missile, but they will receive it.
They don’t receive what they need, because these are not weapons you can use just like that. You need really a lot of assistance. I mean, this is really a mystery for everyone. But for instance, we have information that Russia is in enormous economic difficulties in this moment. They have inflation that is growing very much. There’s a deep division between the central bank and the government. And so the economic situation is going badly perhaps not to be able to stop the war, but to change in a very radical way its rhythm. So maybe a ceasefire, a pause… Moreover, we have to wait for Trump, really, because Trump has gone so far as to say, “I will get out from NATO”. This is absolutely improbable. He will never do such thing. But still we have to wait, because when he will start governing, we’re going to see what can be done also in these terms, because, for instance, Zelensky deserves at least a clear answer on the fact that they should be defended by NATO or not. And if we deny the defense, we have to provide something else, a substitute. It should sort of manage the diplomatic settlement with Russia in a rather different way. Because, in principle, if Zelensky was not satisfied, but would stand a stop of the war and giving up a substantial part of their land, like the peninsula and maybe a couple of regions there…
Do you mean that some land should be given?
No, but suppose that at the end the situation is such that they have to give up something.
You mean Crimea?
Crimea and maybe a couple of lands smaller than the Russians are now occupying, but something. When you sit at the table and start discussing, the important thing is if the red line has been placed backwards with respect to the position, “we will never give not even a square meter to the Russians”. This has been the red line up to now. But this red line is not sustainable. And it will be changed, I think. So, the problem is not so much how much it will be changed, but it will be changed. And therefore it will, at a certain point, in exchange of the stopping of killing people, there will be this red line. But Zelensky has basically already said that this red line is now much more flexible. If you look at the very last declarations, you can see that. And moreover, you must understand what Russians do want, even for them. If you give maybe only Crimea and Putin thinks that he can exploit the fact that he has been able to get Crimea in a way which is sufficient for him to declare and to pretend that he has done a fruitful thing for Russia, which is a crazy idea because the cost for Russia has been enormous. But suppose he is convinced that if he can declare that having a little piece of Donbass and Crimea, he has won. Well, this can help Putin to come to terms and stop the war.
But all this has to be seen. And the only thing that I know for sure, because this is a common sentiment, it’s not my personal conviction, is that during the last couple of months, things have been progressing. In spite of the fact that they still bomb. But the diplomatic work is going on. And China, I think, is also crucial. And it has been activated. And I think that the relationship between the US and China is the relationship that will find a solution. Because China is in full control of Putin, full. I mean, they can stop it from one day to the other. I mean, they buy the gas, they buy the oil, they provide the arms, they defend…
China will not blackmail Putin to stop the war or to stop trade.
Well, if they want, they can do it.
If they want the war to finish, why would China want the war to finish?
Because they might turn the point aside, that they want to improve very, very much their relationship with the rest of the world. They are sufficiently powerful to deal in a peaceful way and be the winners in many fields.
So that after all, it’s better to live without the war than with the war. Because they need investments, they need to be considered a serious country. Obviously, we have to offer to them a different attitude in terms of their culture and their political ideas. We cannot ask China to become a Western country. It doesn’t make sense. We have to pay full respect to their values, full respect to their political system that is different from us and will stay different. And we must hope that it stays different. Because if you try to impose on a country, on a culture, a system which is not good for their culture, it’s going to be a failure. So, as soon as we give the right attention to China, and they understand, I think they will stop. Moreover, it’s a danger also for them.
Look, now they have North Korea… North Korea for China, you know, they’ve been in charge in the past, they’ve been in charge to keep control of North Korea. And now, they’ve lost control of North Korea, I suppose. And today, we have the news from South Korea. And China is extremely attentive to economics. They want to grow. They want to be rich. They want to be successful economically. It’s not like Russia that has lost its mind, and they don’t know what they want. China knows what they want. So, I think it’s reasonable enough. And they have an enormous amount of relations with America. They have an enormous amount of investments in the US. And the United States and European investments are very rich and very important in China.
So, China is completely on different footing. I think that they are in full talking with the US since the beginning of the work. By the way, we had a very important meeting between the two. A very powerful Chinese delegation came to Italy, came to Rome at the very beginning of the Ukrainian war and entered the American Embassy, and they stayed in 48 hours. And we don’t know what they said. It was on the media. We saw on the television news, we saw the cars coming also from Washington, because there was a special delegation from Washington. And we saw the cars of the Chinese. And the doors of the American Embassy, where you, by the way, you have a very large part which is occupied by the CIA. So, they opened up and then they closed up. And this happened during late afternoon, or it was already dark, I remember. And some say that, Jake Sullivan was there, so some say that something has been decided that has been kept during the war. Because, politicians are, they declare the wars, but the true power is with the generals. And the generals are very, very reasonable. People that know what the war is, they know exactly what they’re talking about. And they prefer not to be in war. They want to have a lot of arms, a lot of power, a lot of money but not the war.
You said that Zelensky became flexible in his red lines recently, and there was much progress. Why do you think is that? Because several Western leaders, such foreign minister of UK, somebody from US and somebody from Germany, they were like several declarations that Ukraine is being like a buffer zone for protecting the West. And some ministers said that Ukrainians are dying bravely for Europe. And for these two years, we see that seriously. Ukrainians are dying for Europeans. And Zelensky is now, what do you think, figuring out that he’s not supported enough? The West actually looks like now provoked Ukraine to get in a war with Russia. And now it is almost all alone. Zelensky, joined the radio program. He told, “I am waiting the US to confirm the arms sales for one year.” And why do you think he’s getting now flexible? Because he accepts the situation that the West is actually not giving him what they promised?
Yeah, I don’t want to exaggerate in saying that it’s becoming flexible. But the impression is that he’s saying, “you should have given us much more help. You should send us immediately very powerful missiles. You are bad if you don’t do it.” I still expect that this happens. But he keeps saying some buts because he understands that things cannot go on like this. And by the way, I think he should have done this much before if he could rely on his population to confirm him after a peace treaty. The problem is that, you know, the real danger is that the war stops, from a military point of view, Russia doesn’t go beyond a certain limit, maybe just a really small part like the peninsula is given to the Russians. But Ukraine falls in the hands politically of a puppet government similar to the Belarusian. So, Zelensky is sent away and Ukraine is governed by a pro-Russian government, corrupted and financed by Moscow, etc. So, these are the two things to be avoided. If you can avoid this in exchange of giving up pieces of land that are, moreover, whose inhabitants are also more or less Russians, I think that it’s something that at this moment would be at least attractable at the table, also for Zelensky. He cannot say this clearly, but I’m sure that it is.
Why he cannot say it clearly? Because he needs approval of the bosses from Europe or the US. Who should allow Zelensky to make a peace deal?
His population. These guys are dying massively to defend. And then if you say stop, they have been convinced of the possibility of winning this war. Because they had the West in their favor, etc. So, if you are the number one of a country like this, you have to say that the war has to be won, etc. I mean, it’s very dangerous. You have also this nuclear power plant in Ukraine. In Ukraine, it keeps being a nightmare. So you cannot…
So, you said that it would be for Ukraine a good idea to give up from some land where there is already Russians are living and it is already kind of taken by Russia. And for example, in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, there are more Russian population living. Russia said they made a referendum. We really don’t know the content as we were not there. On the other hand, it has another outcome. When I go to Baltics, I spoke with several politicians and they say that the Ukraine, it is important to keep the territorial integrity because they are very afraid that if Ukraine loses any land, they are afraid that Russia can go to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. There is the Suvalki Corridor problem. You know, if Russia, with the support of Belarus, gets the Suvalki Corridor, all these Baltic countries’ ties and connection can be cut with Europe and NATO borders.
Yeah, it’s a Hitler model, you know, with the Czechs back in the beginning. This is clearly the position, but this doesn’t change if you keep Ukraine without concessions. I mean, they are on the frontier of Europe. What they can ask is a super support of all Europe and America and the West and everybody to their borders. This is what they can. Moreover, Ukraine is a cushion between part of the European Union, the southern part of Russia, but Estonia and Lithuania have a contact with Russia. So, it’s fairly natural that these countries are very sensitive to this, but I don’t think they can change the reality. Ukraine has been a disaster. Perhaps things could have been conducted in a different way and perhaps, the outcome could have been better. But moreover, once Russia is out of this war, its economic and political conditions will be very weak, not very strong. Even if the solution could be giving up a little part of Ukraine. This will give Putin the right to, in turn, domestically, to argue in favor of what he did, but it doesn’t strengthen the Russian economy, etc.
China, again, is crucial because China, at that point, could do one very aggressive thing, that is really to conquer Russia. In the sense that a very weak Russia could become a province of China, basically. Metaphorically. And they could sort of seal this with a lot of very important things such as Chinese population being settling in Russia, in Siberia, in Russia. Very strong agreements in terms of resources, etc. This means that Russia will cease to exist independent of China. And this can be done also in an aggressive way to the West. So, at that point, China could say, “well, I take Russia and I keep being extremely aggressive with the West”. Or the opposite could happen. “Well, now that I helped to solve the Russian problem, I will be able to deal with the West in a peaceful but diplomatically strong way”. And then you have Taiwan at that point. If you give up something in Taiwan also, you can buy Chinese consensus. So, it depends a bit. And Trump in this can be a surprise.
And by the way, finally, Türkiye. I mean, Türkiye should take much more responsibility in this. Because Türkiye is playing in all the fields, doing everything and mediation.
They could do an enormous job. Because they have a relationship with Ukraine in terms of sea shipping. Odessa is a crucial thing for Türkiye. You could really contribute… Türkiye could really contribute to make a deal with Russia and Ukraine and help Ukraine to accept a deal that will bring peace. Because you have something to offer. And to offer in a way also to get something.
This is very unique. Türkiye is buying S-400s from Russia and giving Baykar UAVs, drones, to Ukraine for air defense. Baykar is not a government company. It’s a private company. So it looks like complicated, but it’s really a balancing situation.
You have a lot of money. You can make enormous investments in Ukraine and cheap price, basically. Of course, when the reconstruction starts, the peace deal should be signed for that.
Interview
“The AfD is an expression of internal contradictions within German big capital”
Following the Alternative for Germany (AfD)’s major victory in the Saxony-Anhalt state elections, significant uncertainty regarding Germany’s future has emerged. Subsequently, in Berlin, Die Linke (The Left) pulled off a major surprise by becoming the leading party, after which a massive counter-campaign began in the mainstream media and the political establishment.
The future is uncertain, but certain signs are evident: the political center, represented by the CDU/CSU, SPD, and the Greens, has crumbled with a loud crack and is on the verge of collapse. We are moving toward a model in which the U.S. will scale back its role in the war in Ukraine, allowing Europe’s “Big Three” (Germany, Britain, and France) to take a more prominent role. While German capital, reliant on cheap Russian gas and despite alarm bells ringing in its industrial sector, is trying to strain relations with China, pessimism and war mongering are on the rise in Berlin.
We discussed all of this with journalist Arnold Schölzel at the Berlin office of Germany’s only left-wing daily newspaper, junge Welt. Schölzel’s biography is quite interesting and deserves a more detailed account; but for now, let’s just say this much: As a young man, he was among those who fled from West Germany to East Germany (the German Democratic Republic—GDR) in 1967. He made this decision because he could no longer tolerate the “old” Nazi influence while serving in the German Armed Forces (Bundeswehr). Schölzel says that throughout the entire history of the GDR, nearly one million people crossed from the West into the country. In a world where escapes from “behind the Wall” to the West are constantly recounted, this issue deserves closer scrutiny.
We spoke with Schölzel on a wide range of topics, from the rise of the AfD to the war in Ukraine, and from German mainstream politics to the “transatlantic right.” The journalist, who emphasizes the prevailing uncertainty, believes that within German big business, there is a segment more inclined toward cooperation with Russia alongside those who favor a more aggressive stance against it. Nevertheless, Schölzel believes that a significant segment of the German business and political class sincerely believes it can bring Russia to its knees and reduce the Russian Federation to a sort of colonial position. In his view, the AfD serves as a “reserve force” kept in reserve precisely for this climate of uncertainty, and it is possible for the party to radicalize even further to the right under different circumstances.

Let’s start with current German politics. What are your thoughts, in particular, on the Russia-Ukraine war and the U.S.’s recent “peace” initiative? Does the U.S. truly want peace, or is it trying to buy time and push its European allies forward?
This is definitely one of Trump’s goals—namely, getting Western Europeans to foot the bill for the war. I believe he reiterated this yesterday [October 18]; it has always been his goal. Western Europeans have also accepted this with great enthusiasm.
I, however, have serious concerns about this for two reasons. One is the long-standing geopolitical tradition of the U.S. and the United Kingdom opposing cooperation between Russia and Western Europe—particularly Germany—on the continent; this has been the case for 120 years. This is a very clear policy. The interests of the U.S. and the entire Anglo-Saxon world are clear. So this relates to the “Heartland” theory outlined by [Zbigniew] Brzezinski in his book The Grand Chessboard, doesn’t it? Whoever plays the Eurasia card poses a threat to U.S. global power. This is understandable.
Here’s what I think: If they aim to create discord between Russia and Western Europe—and especially Germany—they might miscalculate, just as I believe they did during the First and Second World Wars. I firmly believe this: I call it German imperialism; German imperialism still wants a place in the sun. Everything starts with that. In 1897, [Bernhard] von Bülow—then Foreign Minister and later Chancellor—made this declaration. It was a declaration that Germany was challenging Great Britain at the time—and, of course, the United States as well—and asserting its own claims to the status of a world power, a great power.
My counterparts in Russia do not believe me, but I suspect that there are still factions within German big business who hold this view: We must secure a position as a great power here on our own. As far as I know, the debate once again revolves around the following question: Will we achieve this through cooperation with Russia, or through an anti-Russian policy that will ultimately weaken Russia to the point of collapse?
In my view, this constellation stems from geography, economics, and—in my eyes—a denial of reality: namely, German foreign policy’s refusal to acknowledge the actual balance of power on the continent.
The prevailing belief in Germany—and I think this is the dominant policy right now—is that Russia can be brought to heel. We hear this over and over again. There are people like Kiesewetter, who are constantly featured on German public television; Roderich Kiesewetter, the foreign policy expert. Morning and night, it’s Kiesewetter, Ms. [Claudia] Major, and many others whose names I’ve forgotten.¹
So within the circle of German foreign policy and security experts, there is a group—behind which, I believe, lie rigid interests—and they believe that Germany, as the leading nation of the EU, is still so powerful that this leader can finally bring Russia to heel.
[German Foreign Minister Johann] Wadephul actually drew a comparison on faz to the collapse of the Soviet Union. This is actually a template: just as we diminished the Soviet Union, we will now diminish the Russian Federation. I see this as madness. I’ll say it again: my Russian counterparts—for example, Fyodor Lukyanov, whom I speak with from time to time—can’t believe that I think German politicians are this crazy, but to be honest, I’m afraid. I’m afraid they actually believe this. As I said, Wadephul repeated this in faz. And this is, of course, a very, very dangerous game—everyone knows that, right? Because this war between Ukraine and Russia could escalate into a larger war at any moment, and there are people who are clearly willing to take that risk.
The U.S., in its current form, seems to be standing somewhat on the sidelines, I suppose. Last week, Der Spiegel published an interview with NATO Supreme Commander General Alexus Grynkewich and the Inspector General of the German Armed Forces (Bundeswehr). You read different things there. There, contrary to the rhetoric of these war hawks in German foreign policy, it states that Russia is not planning a war. Russia is not planning a war. Grynkewich said that we are far superior militarily. That’s precisely why Russia shouldn’t be allowed to take the initiative. But what isn’t clear from this interview is that we want to corner and weaken Russia. You hear this from the Germans—and, of course, from the coalition of the willing that is effectively led by Germany now that Joe Biden is gone—don’t you?
We’ve heard many reports that the U.S. will withdraw from Europe and that the U.S. is trying to dismantle NATO. But at the same time, they’re somehow forcing Germany to take on NATO’s leadership; the Trump administration, it seems, is saying we want Germany to lead Europe. And this process of rearmament—and perhaps the militarization of German culture—is steadily increasing, because every time I come to Berlin, it feels like there’s more and more war mongering in the air—much more. But it’s hard to understand what German big capital, the big bourgeoisie, is trying to do in Ukraine. Of course, they have some major investments, particularly in the arms and defense industries. I suppose this also serves as a kind of laboratory for war efforts, digitalization, or things like that, but still, Germany—or at least some German bourgeois circles—is also facing some difficulties due to the war in Ukraine. How can we reconcile these conflicting interests of the German bourgeoisie and what they plan to do in Ukraine? Why are they doing this?
I truly believe the real target is Russia—the collapse of Russia, just as it was with the Soviet Union. Russia is made up of more than 80 different nations and ethnic groups. There are also many, many different nationalities within the Russian Federation itself. I think they tried this in the 1990s and 2000s in Chechnya, the Caucasus, and generally in places like Tatarstan by playing the “national card” against the Muslim population. This failed, just as efforts to play the “national card” and foment national division in China—through Tibet or Xinjiang, that is, the Uyghurs—have failed.
Now, the openly declared goal in Russia—which possesses immense natural resource wealth—is to weaken Russia politically to such an extent that it regresses to a semi-dependent or colonial status.
I always recall a pioneer of German foreign policy from the era of the German Empire. His name was Paul Rohrbach. In 1916, he uttered this memorable phrase: Whoever controls Kiev can bring Moscow to its knees. This actually comes from Brzezinski—and yes, from 70 to 80 years ago. I get the impression that a large portion of German capital has abandoned the idea that it could achieve its own goals through cooperation with Russia. I view even the fact that Siemens has almost completely withdrawn from Russia as a very, very serious warning sign. Siemens had been operating in Russia since around 1860. Lenin’s plan—communism, Soviet rule, plus electrification—was largely carried out by Siemens.
Therefore, abandoning this trade and withdrawing is, in my view, a very serious warning sign that German big business has other plans regarding cooperation with Russia. In addition, I believe Donald Trump—though this began under Biden—told the Western Europeans: “What you do with Russia is now your story; we have our own issues with China.” I believe this is the backdrop to what is happening right now.
So the question is: What will the future of U.S.-China relations look like? This situation, of course, is affecting these alignments in Europe. Frankly, I’m not sure about this issue. German big business is clearly split on the matter of China. On the one hand, they argue that if we don’t cooperate with China, we’ll fall behind technologically and economically. On the other hand, I think they’re trying by any means necessary to break away from this close bond with China, this economic integration, and—though I don’t yet have a clear idea of how it will play out—they’re trying to gain independence through a policy that forces China to make concessions that will weaken Russia.
This seems a bit contradictory, because, of course, the cooperation between China and Russia is on such a scale that there’s no sign China is abandoning Russia. I don’t believe that. But China will likely take its own position there as well. I don’t know which one, but this is very, very complex.
“The current interests of German capital coincide with the CDU-SPD coalition”
Where does the AfD fit into this picture, and what position does it hold? This party is polling at 30 percent—could you explain how the AfD positions itself regarding the war and in relation to German big business?
I think this is also an expression of the internal contradictions within German big business. They are not in agreement on policies regarding the war and relations with Russia, and fortunately, nothing has been decided yet. As I said, there is an aggressive faction; but alongside that, of course, there is also a sufficient number of companies and segments of capital that favor a reasonable policy toward Russia—one that seeks cooperation. There were many German companies at the recent International Economic Forum in St. Petersburg. Gerhard Schröder has now taken on this role at Globus. Other major German companies are also still operating in Russia. For example, Metro and the automakers haven’t shut all their doors. At least they haven’t completely abandoned their factories.
As for the AfD, in my view, it serves as a political reserve in the broader political landscape. In other words, I believe that in a situation where the economic crisis may be deepening and a political crisis is unfolding in the Federal Republic, the AfD acts as a “transatlantic right-wing” reserve—particularly, of course, to support the CDU.
Magdeburg [the capital of the state of Saxony-Anhalt] is perhaps a laboratory where such a scenario is being tested. There are also influential forces that have finally forced Friedrich Merz to tear down this so-called “firewall” (Brandmauer) against the AfD.
So far, it has been said that this is merely a rumor, but it is reported, for example, that Axel Springer CEO Mathias Döpfner has twice asked Merz to pursue a more cooperative policy toward the AfD. This is just a rumor, but it has never actually been denied either.
And Döpfner has very good relationships with Peter Thiel and Elon Musk.
He recently presented Peter Thiel with the Axel Springer Award and had a long conversation with him. And the truly interesting thing here—which reinforces the argument that Sevim Dağdelen and I have made regarding the AfD’s ties to the transatlantic right— —is Peter Thiel’s remarks, his lengthy conversation with Matthias Döpfner at the award ceremony, and now his connections with various figures from U.S. big business. For example, Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan Chase—the largest bank in the U.S.—says that what Trump is doing here is threatening our allies, presenting the withdrawal of NATO from Western Europe not as an actual policy but as a threat… Dimon said this is going in the wrong direction, that it’s the wrong policy, and that we need to “win back the old West.” This means reestablishing sensible cooperation not only with Western Europe but also with Japan, the Philippines, and South Korea—in other words, rebuilding the old West. He didn’t say what this means politically in terms of China policy, but I’m skeptical that it will be a good thing. Therefore, this will likely be more in line with the Democrats’ traditional policy: pursuing a more liberal stance domestically compared to Trump and the entire MAGA movement, but adopting a tougher stance abroad toward China and Russia.
And to me, it makes a lot of sense for them to ally with the AfD to reestablish the “old West.” For U.S. capital, this is probably more appealing than the U.S.’s confrontational policy toward Western Europe. But all of this is in such flux right now that it’s hard to say what kind of realistic policy will emerge from it. I have to admit that. In other words, things are at a stage where it’s difficult to say where they’re really headed. I’ll say it again: interests in Germany—within German big business—appear to be divided. There are at least two: an aggressive variant and a cooperative variant. The AfD likely serves both of them—it makes no difference to them. They are, as we might say, a “reserve force”—a recreational reserve for big politics. Whether this will actually materialize is another matter, depending on the CDU’s election results. There, Friedrich Merz is consistently dragging down the CDU’s vote share; so much so that the necessity of bringing the AfD on board is increasing rather than decreasing.
Of course, decisions are primarily made at the economic level, and these are later reflected in politics—including policy toward Russia and China. But as I said, it’s very hard to say which faction will prevail there.
Do you think the AfD will turn into a new CDU—or a “CDU 2.0”—once it grows large enough?
Absolutely. The AfD was a breakaway from the CDU. It was founded by CDU members. In East Germany—for example, in Saxony—its leadership consists primarily of former CDU members who came of age under Kurt Biedenkopf’s leadership in the 1990s. The AfD, which is particularly strong in Saxony, is, in my view, a product of the CDU.
Of course, it could always return. A shift toward radicalization could also occur; the AfD has brought together elements that were banned in the old CDU of the Federal Republic—namely, anti-Semites, racists, and supporters of the U.S. Open fascists are welcomed with open arms in the AfD. My view is this: The AfD is not a fascist party, but it is a party for fascists. Of course, radicalization could also occur in this context.
This also depends on developments within the EU. Take Italy, for example—things are going a bit differently there than expected; that is, there is no radicalization under Meloni. But if Marine Le Pen becomes president in France next year, we will likely have to reassess where things are headed here in Germany as well. Right now, so many things are up in the air.
Does the same apply to Die Linke (The Left)? Because I think I read an article in your newspaper, *Junge Welt*, suggesting that Die Linke is increasingly becoming the party of the urban, trendy crowd—in other words, sort of like a new SPD. Is that true?
Yes. Even though it won the election in Berlin, it’s constantly losing ground, especially in East Germany. Up until 10 years ago, its voter base across all of East Germany was around 20 percent; now it’s mostly below 10 percent, and here in Berlin there’s a notable exception where the vote largely comes from the immigrant population—or people of immigrant origin. Elif Eralp, the lead candidate, played a major role in this.
It’s also worth noting that there were 2.5 million eligible voters in Berlin, and because voting was permitted for the first time starting at age 16, there were a large number of young people. However, there was also a record number of people—1.4 million—who have lived in Berlin for years but lack the right to vote. These are, of course—I think nearly 1 million of them—people without German passports, which had never been seen before.
The Left’s entire platform, in my opinion, is indeed a social democratic one. I think it will be very difficult for the Left to repeat this election victory. They won’t be able to repeat this victory in future elections.
However, mainstream parties like the CDU, SPD, and the Greens seem to be trying to normalize the AfD by portraying Die Linke in Berlin as anti-Semitic or something similar. Because I’ve read some news articles or watched videos in publications like *Die Welt* where it’s claimed that the AfD is already more “normal” than Die Linke. Is it possible to use Die Linke to normalize the AfD?
Yes. When the AfD won the election in Saxony-Anhalt, [CSU leader and Bavarian State Premier] Markus Söder said this was democracy. But when the Left Party won in Berlin, he said, “We’ll cut off all the money we give them; we’ll do this, we’ll do that.” I can say that for the CSU and Markus Söder, the question is also about how to deal with the AfD, and I think they’ve already decided how to manage their policies regarding the AfD.
But there’s still a kind of division within the CDU regarding how to deal with the AfD. Because one part of the party wants to ban this party, while the other part says, “No, don’t do that.” Is it possible to ban this party?
The “C” in the names of the Union parties stands for “Christian.” There are major Christian churches—Catholics, Roman Catholics, and Lutherans—and they are very powerful within the CDU/CSU. And there are also Jews. Take Karin Prien, for example, the minister of youth and social affairs. Prien comes from a Jewish family, and I don’t think there would be any cooperation between her and the AfD, for instance. So you’re right, the CDU is also divided internally, and this will lead to major problems.
You mentioned China, but there have been many debates in Germany recently that are critical of China. I think for the past few years, both German government officials and major sectors like the automotive industry have been taking a cautious stance toward China. For example, they didn’t want any tariffs imposed on China. But recently, they’ve changed their stance and adopted a harsh rhetoric similar to that used against Russia.
No, the situation is more complex. Do you remember Annalena Baerbock, that famous foreign minister? She presented a China strategy, didn’t she? In that strategy, China was defined as a “partner, competitor, and systemic adversary.” The result was supposed to be “decoupling” [economic separation].
Looking at it today, I can say that this has failed. No one is talking about this China strategy anymore, and I think the strategy is only three years old. No one is talking about it anymore. Furthermore, “decoupling” later evolved into a cautious—very cautious—process of “risk reduction” [derisking]. These are the famous supply chain issues. In other words, you want to avoid putting all your eggs in one basket; you don’t want to remain dependent on shipments from China in the event of a crisis.
On the other hand, I visited China for the first time last year, and the Chinese press is writing things about German executives that are completely different from what you read here in the business section of the *Handelsblatt* or in the *Süddeutsche Zeitung*. German executives in China—especially in the automotive sector—are saying that we shouldn’t just manufacture here; we actually need to conduct research and development activities here as well.
BMW established its own research and development facility in China last year. The situation is the same for VW. The reasoning is this: They are, so to speak, at the forefront of the world—at the forefront of global technology—and if we aren’t part of that, we’ll miss out on opportunities in the global market.
For German companies, the issues at stake are now entirely different and strategic—not just in this sector, but in sectors like artificial intelligence as well. They’re stating this quite clearly: Germany has fallen so far behind in certain technical fields that it can only keep up by collaborating with China.
As for the tone in German politics… If I were in their shoes, I’d be cautious. Politicians have become more cautious in their stance, but the German media has not. Even in the business newspapers here, you don’t hear about what’s really happening technologically in China.
Of course, there are exceptions. Today’s economic section of *faz* reports that China has almost caught up with Nvidia in the software sector. Even just a short time ago, it was being said that China lagged months, even years, behind Nvidia and major U.S. tech companies in the field of AI software. Today’s *Faz* notes that the two are now very close and, above all, emphasizes that China’s strategy is to make everything open-source. This means it’s incredibly cheap and accessible to everyone. Consequently, *Faz* describes this, so to speak, as massive competition: The Germans will join this competition too; naturally, they’ll gravitate toward what’s cheaper, won’t they?
At the investment forum that began today (October 19) in Berlin, the Chancellor is expected to meet with Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang. In an interview he gave to the Bild newspaper in London just before heading to Berlin, he said it broke his heart to see how far behind Germany has fallen in the technology sector. According to him, Germany (after all, they’re always polite) has very talented people, but now they really need to get down to business.
To be honest, I was in China merely as a sort of political tourist, but when I read about what’s been happening in Germany, I learned this: an economic stagnation that’s been ongoing since 2019. We’ve been in a recession since 2019, and wages have been affected as well—which, of course, is a major source of discontent among the public. This is precisely the ground on which the AfD has actually grown.
The issue isn’t just peace with Russia; first and foremost, of course, it’s the loss of industry and blue-collar jobs. We’re talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs; in the automotive electronics sector alone, 10,000 jobs are being lost every month right now. The problem is that there has been a decline in investment. Foreign investment in Germany has not yet returned to 2019 levels.
That is precisely why we are organizing an investment summit like the one taking place here today. When I returned from China as a political tourist, I said, “One gets the impression—perhaps a bit exaggerated and not entirely accurate—that Germany resembles an industrial museum compared to China and what is on display there.”
This is a clear strategy, and the Federal Republic must confront it: I believe it is precisely this situation—this weakness and decline—that is the reason we are holding an investment conference here today. In other words, the aggressiveness in politics stems in part from this weakness. As we can see, we are losing ground, and that is a problem.
In France and other European countries, many groups—especially young people—are taking to the streets, but there’s no similar trend in Germany. For example, if we compare the number of participants at the peace rally we witnessed in Berlin three years ago with those at this year’s events, there’s a clear drop in attendance. What do you make of that?
That’s true. However, there has also been a “School Strike” ongoing in Germany for over a year now. In these protests, young people are mounting significant resistance against mandatory military service. Even though there isn’t the same level of street activism as in France, the School Strikes appear to be quite significant for a country like Germany.
¹ Roderich Kiesewetter: A CDU member of parliament and the party’s foreign policy spokesperson. He is known for his hardline stance toward Russia. Claudia Major: A German expert on security and defense policy born in East Berlin. While she argues that striking Russia’s interior regions is legitimate, her recent meeting with Chechen separatists also made headlines in Germany. (Editor’s note)
Interview
Daniel Davis warns US strategy fails against Iranian defense grid
Retired US Army Lieutenant Colonel and military analyst Daniel Davis discussed the US military operation against Iran, decision-making mechanisms in Washington, US-Israel relations, transformations in modern warfare doctrine, and the global balance of power in an interview with Harici Media.
Answering questions of Harici Editor-in-Chief Tunç Akkoç regarding the Iran war, retired Lieutenant Colonel Daniel Davis stated that the US administration lacks an achievable military strategy on the ground. Davis said: “I would say the US has a desire, not a strategy. It wants to subjugate the Iranian side, corner them, seize control of the Strait of Hormuz, prove they pose no threat to anyone in the region, and ensure they never possess nuclear weapons. That is our desire. But there is no strategy to achieve any of these goals.”
Drawing on his past military experience, Davis detailed the geographical and technical challenges on the ground: “As a soldier with direct combat experience, having gained combat experience in some of these mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan, for example, I know that many of the mountains inside Iran belong to the same mountain category. I knew what a difficult military task it would be to conquer a country as large as most of Western Europe, where such mountain ranges cover the entire western front. Therefore, I knew you could do nothing on the ground. However, I also knew that you could not subjugate a country with this kind of defense capacity and of this nature through air power alone.”
Pointing out that Iran’s defense infrastructure spans many years, Davis continued: “You cannot do this, especially when they have anticipated this for twenty years and made all kinds of preparations by constructing underground caves, production facilities, and storage facilities, and developing production capabilities for their unmanned aerial vehicles and missiles. There is no way you can defeat them. Because such facilities were designed not only to withstand all our strike missiles, such as Tomahawk, Jasmine cruise missiles, PSM, or ATAC, but also to survive. Most are capable of surviving nuclear explosions as well. I have been inside some of these here in the US. I have been in some physically located beneath a mountain. I know they were specifically designed when constructed to withstand the largest nuclear weapons the Soviet Union might possess. The ones there are of the same kind. If you know before embarking on an act of starting a war that the enemy is this large, possesses these types of defenses, and everyone knows these are resistant to our non-nuclear conventional munitions, why would you start a war to force them into something you clearly cannot achieve?”
Addressing the assumptions behind the war decision, Davis said: “I think this is a fantasy stoked by Benjamin Netanyahu. It was said, ‘If we assassinate their leaders, the same thing will happen as happened to Maduro in Venezuela. You went there, captured him, and disabled him; when you did that, you took control of the entire government, they basically handed the country over to you, and the same will happen here.’ Anyone who thinks Venezuela is like Iran has paid attention to nothing. The culture, history, religion, experiences, and everything that has transpired over the last 47 years are radically different from those in Venezuela, and you do not have an insider to facilitate the process as we had in Venezuela. But President Trump appears to have thought this way.”
“When he started the war on February 28, he sealed our fate; we lost this war”
Pointing to inconsistencies in US President Donald Trump’s decisions and the trajectory of the operation, Davis stated: “This situation is proof that he is stuck. Because, in my view, when he started the war on February 28, he sealed our fate. We lost this war. Even if it is ongoing right now, there is no logical way for us to win it. Because we cannot eliminate the trump card held by the Iranian side.”
Stating that military pressure mechanisms are insufficient, Davis explained: “We still have our missiles, aircraft, aircraft carriers, and all such elements. That is why it appears feasible. It is thought, ‘Maybe if we make a good enough deal, or put enough pressure on them, or impose a blockade and leave the public in a dire enough position to change the government’s mind.’ This is a fantasy. This is the only thing President Trump has. Because if he were acting based solely on military reality, strategic reality, and cultural and religious reality, he would know this was an unwise move, but he does not know.”
Describing Trump’s negotiation approach and the breakdown of the reached agreement, Davis used the following expressions: “He is a transactional individual who wants relationships resolved overnight. For example, during the memorandum of understanding period, this duration was to be 60 days. After starting the war, no achievable military objectives remained. Whatever your desires were, you can no longer reach them because you have confronted reality. Now he is trying to find an exit route, but even within this understanding, he cannot arrive at a rational and consistent perspective. Any rational person would think that when the memorandum of understanding was signed on June 17, it provided him with an exit route. You implement the terms of this memorandum, the crisis is resolved, the dual blockade is lifted, and the Strait of Hormuz could reopen.”
Addressing the clauses of the agreement text and subsequent developments, Davis said: “The terms Trump signed stated that Iran had administrative control of the Strait of Hormuz but could not demand any transit fees for 60 days. Iran accepted this, but accepted only one condition: the ‘for 60 days only’ stipulation. Subsequently, they publicly announced that they would collect fees later, but not during these 60 days. The US was not mentioned in the text in any way. We had no say. The authority to decide how operations would run was left to Iran together with Oman. We gave them 30 of the 60 days to prepare their plan for this. But after four or five days passed, the US suddenly declared a new southern corridor together with Oman.”
Detailing the process of reversing the decision, Davis noted: “While a step to reopen the strait had been agreed upon, traffic had risen to approximately one-third of pre-war levels, and many shipments had passed directly on the first day, Trump personally turned back this development toward finding a reasonable exit route from the unfolding disaster. According to reports from some sources in Washington, he came under intense pressure from pro-war figures in his inner circle and those on the Israeli side. He backed down under this pressure and modified the terms by inserting himself into the fifth paragraph. He never made Israel implement the first paragraph, which covered Lebanon and envisioned a ceasefire on all fronts. We did not even give them 30 days; we intervened before five days had passed. Trump has a goal, fails to reach it, puts forward another condition, and then withdraws that as well. He is very easily manipulated; he reaches a decision, then someone speaks with him, and he changes his mind.”
Recalling that a similar situation occurred in relations with Saudi Arabia, Davis said: “He said he made a great deal with Saudi Arabia, and the next day he changed the condition by saying, ‘as long as they sign the Abraham Accords.’ Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, announced that this was not part of the agreement and had never been discussed. This situation shows that President Trump constantly makes concessions when pressured. On this basis, how can any agreement be reached with the US? This situation means that no military or diplomatic exit point remains because he does not permit it.”
“Control is no longer an economic matter; it is a national security imperative”
In response to a question about whether a mutual exit opportunity remains from the current impasse, Davis said: “We had the memorandum of understanding; we had secured this agreement. However, President Trump and his Secretary, Scott Bessent, said, ‘as long as it is a deal we like, we want a new deal.’ You already had a deal; what deal are you talking about now? Why would the Iranian side negotiate a new deal that differs from an agreement made two months ago? This is completely illogical. The Iranian side holds military superiority through its missile cities and half a dozen alternative methods to control the strait. As their official authorities stated on social media, control of the strait is no longer merely an economic matter; it is a national security imperative because it is the only tool with which they can balance their American adversary, who is far stronger militarily.”
Evaluating the impact of the oil crisis, Davis stated: “Strategic Petroleum Reserves are declining. This situation has prevented a crisis so far, but it cannot cover products like jet fuel, diesel, and fertilizer. If it continues this way and the problem is postponed, the reserves will be depleted one day, and economic activity cannot be sustained without oil. Pressure is on President Trump, and the Iranian side is aware of this. They know the blockade will harm them, but they have calculated that they can endure much longer and deeper pain than our side. This is an existential matter; they know that if they surrender their only trump card to an unpredictable president, they will be attacked again later.”
“Reflexive support for Israel in society has been broken”
Touching upon relations between the US and Israel, Davis said a clear divergence has begun in American society. Davis noted: “In the past, across all segments of society and all generations, it was reflexively said, ‘Of course we are pro-Israel, they are our democratic ally.’ This situation continued until the Gaza process following October 7. Israel was attacked on October 7, and no one found it strange that it responded. However, what happened afterward created problems. Israel used this opportunity to destroy the Gaza Strip, increase pressure in the West Bank, bring in new settlers, and discuss annexation.”
Describing the rift between political elites and the public, Davis explained: “There is a major divide in America. Elites are unaffected by genocide or the killing of women and children in the West Bank and Gaza; they close their eyes, arguing that Israel is an ally. However, the eyes of the American public are not closed. They see human suffering on social media and do not carry the memorized assumptions of the past. These elites are not merely bought with money; for decades, they genuinely believed that our interests and Israel’s interests were one and the same. In their minds, saying something negative about Israel is equivalent to saying something negative about the US. Younger generations in particular, and a growing portion of all generations, recognize that our interests are not the same.”
Drawing attention to the cost of the war to the US, Davis noted: “We elected President Trump to apply the America First principle, not Israel first, Britain first, or Germany first. There is anger against those who sacrificed America’s needs by entering the war. According to figures reflected in the public domain, at least 600 Americans were injured; according to what I have heard, this number is over a thousand. Money has been spent, our facilities have been damaged, and our aircraft destroyed; around 40 to 50 of our aircraft were damaged or destroyed. Our bases were ruined and will likely never be rebuilt. We have also lost our geopolitical influence in the region. I doubt that relations with Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, and Kuwait can return to their former state. Because the foundational assumption of this entire structure was that we could protect them; we could not even protect ourselves.”
“We are still living as if it were 1992”
Evaluating the shift in military technology, Davis stated that the US has lost its traditional military superiority. Davis said: “A large number of people in America are still living as if it were 1992. The Soviet Union had just collapsed, China was a peasant army developing militarily and economically, and we held absolute dominance following Operation Desert Storm. We are no longer in 1992. The Russians corrected their mistakes after the initial phase of the Ukraine war in 2022; they became a much stronger land force, missile, and drone force. China, meanwhile, reached immense technological and industrial capacity.”
Explaining the current situation through the example of Iran, Davis said: “We thought we could crush Iran like a fly, but we could not do so due to their missile cities and technologies. If we cannot eliminate Iran, what can we do against China or Russia, which possess power far beyond that? We have fallen behind in categories such as hypersonic missiles and the new Oreshnik missile. When I saw the Bayraktar TB2 vehicles used by the Turks in the 2020 Armenia-Azerbaijan war, as someone with an armored unit background, I understood that the nature of war had changed. The US, meanwhile, talks about producing 300,000 drones by 2030. In an environment where tactics change every six weeks on the Ukrainian and Russian battlefield, our systems remain extremely slow. Ukrainian soldiers mocked the tank platoon manual published last year, saying that with these methods, one could not survive on the battlefield for even ten minutes.”
“The idea of containing China is a fantasy”
Criticizing the US military approach toward China, Davis evaluated: “There is talk of a strategy to militarily contain China. Will you prevent their activities within their own borders, their technological developments, or the expansion of their military? You cannot stop a country with a strong economy and a massive population. We can achieve no result other than entering a war with China in the Asia-Pacific region and losing it. China’s shipbuilding capacity is approximately 200 times ours; they are vastly superior to us in artillery ammunition, aircraft, and missile production. Our methods left over from the Cold War no longer work. What we need to do is keep our own defense strong and ensure deterrence, not spend billions of dollars in the region to establish forward bases that will be hit.”
Touching upon the potential for diplomatic relations between the two countries, Davis said: “I think President Trump personally knows that going to war with China is unwise. However, the Pentagon and the military-industrial complex view China as a constant enemy, demanding more budget, more bases, and more missiles every year. No one considers diplomacy. Yet we can develop peaceful, stable relations with China based on mutual benefit, even if not friendly. Regarding Taiwan as well, I think leaders realize after seeing what occurred in the Middle East and Ukraine that help will not come, and they will adopt a more cooperative stance by withdrawing independence rhetoric. China does not want to start a war; it desires a model similar to Hong Kong. Even if a conflict breaks out in the worst-case scenario, it is between China and Taiwan; the US should not choose to join the war and lose.”
Emphasizing that the arms lobby inside the US maintains its power, Davis stated: “The military-industrial complex remains extremely powerful and holds all levers of power. They maintain control through members of Congress, the media, and public relations networks; I see no sign that this structure is weakening.”
“They did not want someone who would tell the truth about Israel”
Providing information about the process surrounding the cancellation of his appointment within the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, Davis recounted the issue in these words: “When Tulsi Gabbard came to me and asked me to become the number three executive in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, I said I would be honored to serve my country. However, I stated that I had openly opposed the policies pursued by Israel since October 7 and the war in Gaza and Lebanon, and that these views might not be welcomed within the administration. She thought my accurate past analyses would compensate for this situation. One of my duties was to present the daily intelligence briefing to the president.”
Describing the stage at which his candidacy was withdrawn, Davis said: “Articles against me appeared in the Israeli press and American media. I never hid my views; I said Benjamin Netanyahu’s policies were harming Israel and dragging us down as well. I advocate the ‘America First’ principle, but there are many people within the administration who say ‘Israel First’ and have zero tolerance for any criticism directed at Netanyahu. They did not want someone who would tell the truth regarding Israel. The process expanded following posts by figures like Laura Loomer. On the day I passed the CIA polygraph test and was set to begin duty, Susie Wiles was informed that I had put the president in a difficult position regarding the Russia-Ukraine war. While Trump was saying there would be a ceasefire, I stated on my program that Vladimir Putin would not agree to a ceasefire given his current advantage. Although I stated that I supported a ceasefire, this was made a pretext, and my appointment offer was withdrawn,” completing the interview.
Interview
Quincy Institute expert says the United States had no plan B
In an interview with Harici Media, Trita Parsi, Executive Vice President of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, stated that global unipolarity is coming to an end, transitioning into an increasingly multipolar order.
Parsi addressed shifting global power dynamics, US foreign policy toward China, structural domestic pressures in Washington, and the strategic miscalculations surrounding the ongoing US conflict with Iran.
Parsi noted that while many analysts declare the arrival of a post-American world, the transition will not be an abrupt moment. Instead, he described a phased emergence where it becomes clear that no single superpower possesses deterministic influence over global affairs.
Parsi observed that many governments have been slow to internalize this reality or adjust their policies accordingly, creating the superficial illusion that a unipolar system remains intact. “Whether it’s fully multipolar or other configurations, we can be debated. What I think is clear is that the unipolarity is coming to an end,” Parsi said.
“Unipolarity is an aberration, an abnormality”
Regarding Washington’s readiness for a multipolar world, Parsi asserted that the US political establishment remains unprepared and has historically denied the shift. He recalled that during the first two years of the Biden administration, describing the world as multipolar was dismissed as a Russian propaganda narrative.
However, Parsi highlighted a shift under US Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who stated in a February 2025 interview that unipolarity was an anomaly. Parsi explained, “He actually went further. He said that unipolarity is an aberration, an abnormality, a historical accident. If you believe that it’s a historical accident, if you believe that it’s an abnormality, then I think it comes from that, that any effort to try to restore unipolarity should be rejected.”
Addressing US policy toward China, Parsi noted that despite the summit between US President Donald Trump and Chinese President Xi Jinping in Beijing, there is no structural indication that Washington views Beijing as a potential partner rather than a rival.
He contrasted the Biden administration’s aggressive posture—which assumed an existential struggle for dominance—with the Trump administration’s softer but poorly planned approach.
Parsi argued that neither power can decisively defeat the other, making mutual coexistence and co-governance essential to avoid a catastrophic zero-sum confrontation.
“An effort to indefinitely contain China is a recipe for disaster”
Parsi rejected the feasibility of military containment against Beijing, warning of severe consequences. “I think an effort to indefinitely contain China is a recipe that will bring about great power competition and a confrontation between the US and China that is going to be completely disastrous,” Parsi stated.
He observed that despite significant US strategic errors, such as the conflict with Iran, China has exercised restraint rather than exploiting American vulnerabilities. Parsi argued that if Beijing were dead-set on aggressive power competition, it would have acted differently.
Economically, Parsi argued that containing China through tariffs or Soviet-era containment models is a losing proposition.
Unlike the Soviet Union, which maintained an isolated economic model, China is deeply integrated into global trade and serves as the primary trading partner for most nations, including those in Latin America such as Brazil. Parsi emphasized that economic containment is unviable against a state with such vast global integration.
“This confrontation will be the deadliest conflict in human history”
Evaluating the risk of the “Thucydides Trap,” Parsi criticized the Washington foreign policy establishment for its structural inability to envision peaceful coexistence.
He noted that the political culture in Washington is built around zero-sum competition and conflict rather than diplomatic management.
Parsi emphasized that while historical precedents exist, humanity is not bound to repeat them, particularly when the stakes involve existential risks. Parsi warned that an unmanaged confrontation between the US and China “would be the deadliest conflict in human history if it is allowed to happen,” threatening human survival itself.
Parsi attributed this narrow strategic focus to structural domestic forces, particularly the US military-industrial complex and influential lobbying groups. Working alongside the grand strategy of liberal hegemony, these forces require US military dominance worldwide, especially in Asia.
Parsi explained that institutional inertia makes it extraordinarily difficult for Washington to alter its strategic trajectory.
“The US had an unrealistic plan A and no plan B”
Turning to the conflict with Iran, Parsi asserted that Washington lacks a coherent strategy, having relied on an unrealistic plan that failed within the first three days.
He stated that the US expected a swift regime collapse or surrender within four days, but faced horizontal escalation from Iran, including threats to the Strait of Hormuz and regional strikes.
“The United States had a very unrealistic plan A and no plan B, and it’s been stuck in that situation ever since,” Parsi said, adding that Washington has been improvising and executing tactical operations without strategic success.
Parsi attributed President Trump’s shifting decisions on Iran to this absence of strategy and his personal demand for immediate results. When military action failed to yield swift progress, Trump turned to diplomacy, only to lose patience within three weeks and resume military strikes. Parsi questioned whether the global community could afford a superpower acting in such an erratic manner.
“Without Israel’s push, there would not have been a war with Iran”
Addressing Israel’s role, Parsi stated that Israeli pressure was a decisive factor in driving US policy toward confrontation with Iran.
“Without Israel’s push, there would not have been a war with Iran. Without Trump agreeing to the Israelis, there would not have been a war with Iran. Both of them were needed,” Parsi remarked, noting that Israeli efforts since 1995 elevated Iran into a primary US national security concern disproportionate to actual US interests in the region.
Parsi identified a growing divergence between US and Israeli interests in the Middle East. While the US benefits from reducing its regional military footprint of 50,000 troops, Israel requires continuous US military presence and intervention to maintain a favorable regional balance of power.
Parsi noted that this divergence has created a visible rift between Washington and Tel Aviv following the poor execution of the war and subsequent diplomatic maneuvers.
“Israel’s standing amongst the American public has plummeted”
Parsi highlighted a major shift in American public opinion regarding Israel, noting that sympathy for Palestinians has surpassed sympathy for Israel across almost every demographic category, except Republicans over the age of 65.
He attributed this decline directly to Israel’s military actions in Gaza and its perceived role in drawing the US into a disastrous war with Iran, which mirrored earlier public grievances over the Iraq War.
Regarding a resolution to the conflict, Parsi stated that a dignified exit for both the US and Iran remains possible, though the window is narrowing due to personal hostility and political miscalculations.
Finally, addressing Trump’s political image, Parsi clarified that Trump was never strictly anti-war, but rather anti-risk.
He explained that Trump entered the conflict because Israeli officials convinced him that war with Iran posed little risk and would be concluded within 100 hours. Parsi concluded that had Trump not been misled into believing the operation would be a swift success, he would not have initiated it.
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