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‘It’s still too early to talk about final peace’

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Hanno Pevkur, Minister of Defense of Estonia spoke to Harici: “It’s still too early to talk about final peace, we all understand that before the peace, there has to be a ceasefire. We want to be part of these negotiations if that comes onto the table.”

Estonian Defense Minister Hanno Pevkur answered Dr. Esra Karahindiba’s questions about the latest developments in the Russia-Ukraine war and the ceasefire and peace negotiations.

Estonian Foreign Minister Margus Tsahkna, in a statement, said that European leaders should be ready to send military forces to Ukraine in support of any peace deal Donald Trump devises between Kyiv and Moscow. Have Estonia and its allies taken any concrete steps in this direction?

Well, of course, we all understand that it’s still too early to talk about final peace, and we see that the battlefield is not in this moment yet. Of course, we’ve always said that we have to help Ukraine as much as we can and as long as we need. Regarding the peace, of course, we all understand that before the peace, there has to be a ceasefire. When the ceasefire is there, it has to be guaranteed. And we also understand that it has to be guaranteed together with the international allies. So, this is why we have not excluded anything at the moment. We want to be part of these negotiations if that comes onto the table. It’s not on the table yet, but, of course, we always said also that there cannot be any peace negotiation or any peace without Ukraine. And if Ukraine is ready for this, then, of course, we are ready to support them.

Would you be ready to send any troops to Ukraine for help?

When we talk about guaranteeing the peace, we have not excluded that. But also, we have said very clearly that before these peace negotiations start, Ukraine has to have a stronger position. And when Ukraine wants to have a stronger position, then all the Western allies have to send as much help as we can. And we have to deliver all the possible equipment that is in our position in order to help Ukraine and also to train the Ukrainian soldiers. So, as I said, it’s still a bit too early, but we all understand and see that there are rumors going on about different options. But our position is very clear: that no peace can happen without Ukraine. And if there will be some kind of guarantee or peace and guarantee mission, then, of course, all the Western allies together have to be part of that.

As part of Estonia’s recent education reforms, all first graders will be taught in Estonian. Russian language is totally banned from Estonia, and the authorities will begin inspecting schools to ensure compliance with the new law on the transition to Estonian language education. What is your reaction to the reactions from Moscow regarding the situation of the Russian minority in the country? Because it is their mother tongue, and if you think about some constitution of human rights and education rights, it is kind of some contradictory position. I know it is not your field, but I think you can comment because this decision is coming out of the clash with Moscow.

We have also Ukrainian minority, we have Finnish minority, we have Latvian minority, we have many other minorities—tens and tens of nations who are living in Estonia. So the state educational system is in the Estonian language, and this is the point. Of course, we have also international schools—for instance, European school—which is giving the studies in English.   But when we talk about the national school system, then this is in Estonian and will be also what we would like to see in the future is that it continues. Regarding any reactions from someone, Estonia is an independent country. We are making our decisions on our own, and this is the answer. There is no other understanding.

With the election of Mr. Trump, statements and road maps for a negotiated settlement in Ukraine have begun to be exchanged. From Tallinn’s point of view, what kind of solution do you envisage for the establishment of peace in Ukraine?

As I said in the beginning, there cannot be any peace without Ukraine. Secondly, what is very, very important is that Russia has to take responsibility for all these war crimes: deporting the children, killing civilians, raping women, etc. This is what we see in Ukraine. This is what has been also proven by facts and collected evidence. And Russia has to take responsibility. So that means that the peace, when it’s done or when it’s concluded, has to be a fair peace. Also, Russia has to pay for all these war crimes—not only about the crimes, but also the destruction they have done in Ukraine. That means, you know, I believe it will be quite a long peace negotiation if it will be conducted one moment. But again, our position is very, very clear. So when I put it into three, like bullets: Firstly, no peace without Ukraine. Secondly, Russia has to take the responsibility. Thirdly, this peace has to be a fair peace with all these different elements.

What could the “fair peace” be?

As I said, first, Russian responsibility. Russians have to pay for the destruction. But also, of course, the Western countries will never accept the occupied territories because this is about the Ukrainian territorial integrity. This is about their right to be and to use their own land.  Russia cannot choose one moment from history and say that this is the true history. Because in history, also, Turks have been much more into Russian territory. We’ve seen the Lithuanian-Polish Kingdom being much further, etc. So, it’s not the point that you can choose one specific moment from history and say that this is the only right moment. In 1991, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, all the territory of Ukraine was put on paper as it is today. We can never accept that someone is coming to take a piece of your land by force.

In the Baltic Sea, Estonia was the first country to start searching and observing the Shadow Fleet of Russians, which are trying to carry Russian oil to Europe using so many different straits and seas in Europe. Estonia was raising this question and trying to catch international attention and support from Europe, and finally, Russia got the 15th level of sanctions. In Tallinn, there was a summit participated in by Nordic-Baltic 8 countries, and the decision came out that other European countries will support this initiative, too, to search for Russian Shadow Fleets. Now, you have more substantial decisiveness on this topic. Would you like to give any comments after what happened in the summit?

Again, when we talk about the Shadow Fleet, this is one more proof of Russia not respecting international law. We all know that the Baltic Sea is important for Russia transporting the oil out of Russia. But nevertheless, we see that they are doing that not according to international maritime law but they are using exactly the Shadow Fleet, etc. So, it is important that the international community will react to that and then say very clearly that if there is something which is against international law, then we have to react.

How do you find and how do you understand that it is Russian oil?

When it comes from Russia and Russian ports, which oil is it?

There has been damage to telecommunications cables under the Baltic Sea. The failure of the C-Lion1 cable on the Finland-Germany line has fuelled suspicions of sabotage. Who do you think is responsible for this incident? Do you think it is an accident or sabotage?

First, we have to wait for the official investigation outcome. Of course, we have some doubts. Of course, there are some rumors circulating around the news. But when we really want to point the finger to someone who is guilty, we need to have proofs, we need to have evidence. And this is exactly for the investigation to find out. So, let’s wait for the investigation results. At the moment, the understanding is that behind the destruction of the cable in the Finnish Gulf a year back, and now between Finland and Germany and between Sweden and Lithuania, these both vessels—or both ships—were belonging to Chinese companies. So now it’s up to the investigation to find out all the details behind these.

Don’t you have an assumption or suspicion?

We might have many assumptions, but as a minister, I cannot go into the rumors or speculations. So I might have a personal opinion, but at this very moment, it’s not relevant.

In September, Major General Andrus Merilo, Chief of the Estonian General Staff, told the Helsingin Sanomat newspaper that the Finnish and Estonian commands intended to develop a plan to prevent the Russian Navy from operating in the Baltic Sea in the event of an ‘extraordinary situation’. How realistic is the prospect of war in the region?

Well, we see that Russia is hostile toward its neighbors. We saw that in 2008 in Georgia. We saw that in 2014 in Crimea. My understanding is that this was a preparation for a larger war—what we see at the moment, already close to three years, in Ukraine. And of course, we understand, and when we look at Putin’s speech in Munich about 15 years ago, a bit more, then from there you can see the intentions. There should be, from the Russian perspective, a gray zone between NATO and Russia, that there should be no enlargement of NATO, etc. So, when you read this speech, then you understand what the ambitious goals of Putin are.

On the other hand, when we also take the officially approved plan from the Ministry of Defense of Russia, the reality is that close to the Estonian and Finnish border, Russia wants to put a new Army Corps—approximately 50,000 to 60,000 troops, a lot of new tanks, a lot of new equipment. So, when this is not an escalation toward NATO and Western countries, what is it?  And this is why, of course, we have to prepare. We have to send a very clear message to Russia: don’t even think about attacking NATO, because NATO will act as one, and NATO is stronger—definitely together as Russia.

Tell me—why does Russia have to use the buffer zone outside of Russia? Russia can also build the buffer zone inside of Russia. Why do they think that the buffer zone can be taken by force, by military force, from the other country, from the other nation?

Maybe they think that Russia doesn’t have to pay for it. The country that has to be in a nonaligned position is preferring a military international organization, to be a member of that organization. Then that country needs to pay—maybe this is the Russian perspective, I don’t know.

Look, NATO is a defensive organization, not an offensive organization. NATO has no intention to attack Russia. NATO is defending its members, and it should be each country’s sovereign right to decide on which side of the civilization they want to be. Do they want to be on the side of Western civilization or Russian civilization, where you don’t have any human rights, any freedom of the press, where people are put in jail just for coming onto the streets? So, this is the choice, and every nation should have the free choice. And again, if Russia wants to build the buffer zone between the NATO countries and Russia, it can definitely do that inside of Russian territory—no problem.

Coming to this PYD issue—Türkiye is a very strong member of NATO, has a very powerful army, and was the only country that fought ISIS on the ground face to face. All other countries were providing aerial support but Turkish soldiers were fighting against ISIS on the ground. Now still, Pentagon and the U.S. still advocating that the YPG is a very good option to fight with ISIS. And our correspondents asked about this: Türkiye is giving you guarantees to fight ISIS with its full presence. Don’t you trust Türkiye? Why do you have to keep an organization that Türkiye sees as a terror group? Why do you still keep supporting them? They said, ‘We are not changing our strategy to fight against ISIS.’ What do you think about NATO? Jens Stoltenberg, the previous Secretary General, was always very supportive of Türkiye. But the members of NATO—including Germany, France, and the U.S.—these countries who say ‘Türkiye is a very good ally,’ leave Türkiye alone in this YPG terror issue.

No, again, we have to separate each member state or each country’s actions outside of their own territory and what NATO is doing as an alliance. NATO as an alliance is strictly focused on defending its member states and its territories. So, this is the focus of NATO. When we talk about also—and when we take the new approved regional plans for NATO—then these plans are defense plans, not offense or attack plans. This is why I believe that we have to keep it separate: what NATO is and NATO tasks, compared to the member states’ individual foreign and defense policy. Because when we take also the United States and Estonian troops in Iraq at the moment, then we are there together with our allies on Operation Inherent Resolve. So, Operation Inherent Resolve is led by the United States. This is why we have to keep it separate—it’s not a NATO mission. Yes, we also have a NATO mission in Iraq where Estonia is also contributing, but we have to keep these issues separate. This is why I don’t want to go into bilateral relations between Türkiye and the United States, but I’m happy to elaborate and happy to discuss what NATO is for and what NATO stands for.

But what is NATO? NATO is composed of states.

Yeah, but you know this is exactly what we have to understand that there are differences. When we talk about also, for instance, Poland—Poland was attacked by migrants coming from Belarus. So, this is not the question of a defense alliance or the question of NATO. This is the question of police forces, border guards, etc. Also, terrorism is not considered as a military problem at the moment. Terrorism is dealt with as an internal affairs matter, also in the United States, for instance. So, this is why, of course, we have to understand and separate very clearly the different tasks of different organizations.

Türkiye is also a member of many organizations. Estonia is part of many organizations. And, for instance, we can also say that, let’s say, the European Union. The European Union has 27 member states. Why is it not defending against military threats? Because it has been very clearly stated that NATO is taking care of the military’s defense posture and the defense, and the European Union is mainly for freedom of trade, freedom of people, etc. This is why we have to make the difference, and I believe also every person—doesn’t matter if this person is in Türkiye or in Estonia—we have to make a difference why different organizations are formed.

You’re traveling to Northern Iraq. Can you tell us the reason for your travel? What is your defense and military cooperation with the Central Iraq or Northern Iraq government? What’s happening there? Why do you have your troops there?

Yes, as I said, we are participating in the mission called Operation Inherent Resolve. We know that this operation will be reformed. Of course, we have to wait because the lead country is the United States. We’ll see when the President Trump administration starts its term, then probably there will be a change in the mission. But at the moment, yes, Estonia has around 100 troops in Iraq on this mission, and we are helping to secure the peace in this region. So, this is what the allies are doing. We are not there because we just went there. We are there because the Iraqi government asked us—or actually asked the United States—to provide that kind of service, that kind of security guarantee. And this is why the United States formed Operation Inherent Resolve.

After the anti-EU post-election and pre-election legislative initiatives in Georgia, there was a strong reaction from the Baltic states to the authorities in Tbilisi. I think you also sanctioned some of their politicians. In light of the events in Georgia, what do you think of the comments about a short-term escalation of tensions in Russia’s neighborhood, such as in the Baltic and the Caucasus?

Well, as we see also from Syria, that Russia is not able to handle many crises at one moment. So, of course, Georgia is different because they’ve been manipulating the Georgian nation and Georgian people for a long time already. We’ve seen many proofs about the violation of election freedom. Unfortunately, the regime today in Georgia is not ready to conduct or to bring new elections onto the table. And, of course, this is something that the Western countries are not approving because we get a lot of information about different violations of the elections. So, this is why, of course, first and foremost, it’s for the Georgian people to come out and say that this is not the way they want to live and this has not been the election result they voted for. And, of course, this is very clear proof of how Russia is trying to affect different neighbors by also intervening in elections. We saw that in Romania lately. We saw that in Moldova.  Also, during the Estonian Parliament elections, we had one party that got some orders from Russian services. So, this is, unfortunately, what we see. And, of course, again, this is very clearly showing that Russia is not respecting the freedoms of its neighbors. And, you know, the only way to fight this is to come out openly with this and to show what Russia is actually doing—how they are influencing not only European elections but also, as we’ve seen, trying to manipulate U.S. elections.

Very shortly about the Suwalki Corridor—it was very much spoken about in recent months. When I came to Tallinn, I spoke with Mr. Marko Mihkelson. Do you still see the Suwalki Corridor as a threat, as an open risk for Russia because of this Belarusian case? Like, it is a very, very small place, but it can cut all the connection with the NATO region and the European Union region. Do you seriously have such hesitation, or is it just one more place to be protected from Russia?

Well, we all understand that Belarus is fully under Russian control, especially when we talk about military actions. So, we see that during this ongoing war of aggression in Ukraine, and as Russia also has the Kaliningrad enclave, then, of course, we all understand that the corridor called Suwalki in between Lithuania and Poland is critical for us. It is an important connection, and as it is so, of course, we need to do everything we can in order to keep it free.

But do you believe there is really a risk? Because not so many people in Russia speak about it, but officials in the Baltics speak about it.

You know, when we come to this neighborhood, and as we are here in Istanbul at the moment, when you talk about the Turkish Straits or Bosphorus Strait—so, is it a problem for Türkiye when it will be closed? I believe it is. It’s the same with the Suwalki Corridor. So just put it in local conditions, local understanding, and you will understand how important it is.

Interview

Alexander Rahr: It would surprise me if this government lasts four years

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Alexander Rahr is one of Germany’s leading foreign policy experts. He worked at the German Council on Foreign Relations (DGAP) for twenty years, where he held managerial positions and played significant roles in shaping German foreign policy. Specializing particularly in German-Russian relations, Rahr is known for his work on Eastern European policies. His analyses, which bring intellectual depth to politics, have earned him respect in both academic and decision-making circles. Rahr, a recipient of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany, has also drawn the German public’s attention to the Eurasian region with his perspectives on the area. We conducted an exclusive interview with Alexander Rahr at his home in Berlin. We asked him about the new federal government in Germany and the prominent issues.

Q: What will be the biggest challenges and tests for the new government?

A: The biggest challenge, to put it simply, will be to present a different image from the traffic light coalition [traffic light coalition, referring to the previous SPD-Greens-FDP government] and not to be internally divided like them. That in itself is already a difficult task. And I am sure that the first major dispute will erupt over the issue of migration in the summer months. Especially if the CDU, along with Interior Minister Dobrindt, is serious about closing borders and deporting people. In that case, the danger of the coalition collapsing would immediately arise, because the SPD would oppose it. I believe such disagreements will also occur in defense and militarization policies. Individuals within the SPD who come from the peace movement will oppose such extensive armament. In short, it would surprise me if this government lasts 4 years.

The German economy cannot be fixed by ‘militarizing’

Q: Germany has been in a recession for some time. In this context, I’d like to ask: With the new government, is the aim to stimulate the economy by prioritizing military spending, in other words, to achieve economic dynamism through a kind of militarization? Is this possible? Because this seems like a transformation. Germany is no longer the leader in the automotive sector as it once was. Could it now be seeking to fill this gap with the defense industry?

A: Yes, this is the plan of the Merz government [referring to a hypothetical future government led by Friedrich Merz of the CDU] and the elites. This situation quite surprises me, because I don’t recognize such a Germany. But when I read Spiegel and other news sources, I come across things that confirm what you’re saying. German economic circles, especially the government and parties, believe that an arms race—which is the policy Reagan pursued 40 years ago of “exhausting the Russians through an arms race”—will lead to a major economic breakthrough. They think that large-scale European armament will bring new orders, new companies will be established, new financial resources will be created, and most importantly, Europe will thereby strengthen, intimidate others, and gain more influence in the world.

This is a rather traditional perspective. However, it is very dangerous and ignores certain realities. This viewpoint completely underestimates the Russian economy; because it is still believed that Russia can be defeated with sanctions, but this will not happen. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that the response to large-scale militarization by Germany or Europe will be for the rest of the world—China, for example—to start arming itself. China will no longer be so peaceful. Other countries seeing Europe arm itself will initially think it’s against Russia, but then they will realize it could also be against China and other countries, and they will prepare themselves accordingly. This is not a good development for the global economy. On the contrary, it could lead to the formation of new blocs in the world and the end of globalization.

When we look at Germany’s internal dynamics, I think there’s a great deal of living in a fantasy world here too. Because Germany’s biggest problems are neither in Russia nor in the Ukraine crisis; they are not externally sourced. Germany’s real problem—which experts have been pointing out for years—is deindustrialization. This process is quite advanced. For Germany to become a strong industrial country again, it needs to regain its potential, but not through armament. We need to produce things that people genuinely need and rebuild the infrastructure. Bridges are crumbling, roads are deteriorating, railways aren’t working, airports aren’t functioning properly. All of this cannot be fixed with a defense industry. We are no longer living in the 1930s.

The government will make major cuts in social spending

Secondly, the largest item in Germany’s state budget is social spending. 43% of the German budget is allocated to social payments such as pensions for retirees—whose numbers are increasing—the long-term unemployed, students, and special pension rights for mothers. So, social spending in Germany is extremely high. You cannot simultaneously try to rapidly expand the defense industry, make Europe the world’s strongest military power, and maintain these social budgets and the social safety net at the same level. They will have to make cuts. And it is precisely at this point that we will reach the limits of society’s tolerance. Of course, it’s not possible to borrow indefinitely. The money allocated to armament will not generate enough tax revenue to cover the deficits in social spending. This means that there will be cuts in social benefits, or people in Germany—especially retirees—will have to forgo many things they are accustomed to in the coming years.

Borrowing currently seems attractive to the incumbent governments in Europe and America. But they forget that they have to pay substantial interest. This money is not earned; it is borrowed, and high interest must be paid on it. This interest can only be covered by income generated by the economy. And a large part of this income will be spent just to pay this interest. Consequently, this trajectory could lead to a major social crisis in Germany. Germany has not experienced large-scale mass protests in the last 30 years. The German people have always been a satiated, or at least relatively satiated, populace. Here, compared to some European countries, no one is hungry. But let me say this: if care is not taken, this situation can change rapidly within a few years. If Germany does not reorient itself towards the “social” priorities that formed the basis of the social market economy in the past, and instead focuses solely on armament, then the problems we will face will become clearly apparent.

The AfD could be banned by the current establishment parties

Q: I’d like to come to the topic of the AfD… In your opinion, is it still possible for this party to be banned in the future, or will the German elites or the system try to integrate the AfD? Could the party eventually be drawn into the system and perhaps become a governing partner with the CDU? What would need to happen for this? For example, scenarios such as the party splitting by dissociating from figures like Björn Höcke and adopting a more “conformist” line are being discussed. What are your thoughts on this?

A: I can offer you three possible scenarios on this matter. First scenario: Politics continues with a “muddling through” approach. Meaning, problems are patched up with temporary solutions, some things are attempted to be fixed, but they break down again after a while. Managing the situation this way can be sustained for a few more years as long as the money lasts and the public tolerates it. But at some point, this scenario will become unsustainable.

Second scenario: The “Brandmauer” [firewall, meaning a strict refusal to cooperate with the AfD] collapses, and the CDU is forced to enter into a coalition with the AfD. This could happen particularly at the state level. Furthermore, I think a formation like Sahra Wagenknecht’s party could re-emerge, strengthening particularly in East Germany. Even if this doesn’t happen, another similar left-leaning party could emerge. This could also be an answer to your question about whether the AfD will split: the AfD won’t split, but a different party might be born. This new party could, under certain conditions, become a coalition partner with the AfD in states like Thuringia, Saxony-Anhalt, or Saxony. If this model works, similar developments could occur in other states. This is a very plausible development scenario for Germany within the next 20 years.

The third scenario is this: The AfD could be banned by the current establishment parties or elites. I think such a culture of prohibition is quite possible in Germany; serious fear can be instilled in the public through the fear of Russia or the threat of fascism. German society, due to its historical past, is very sensitive to such fears and could support such a ban. However, other countries will not approach this situation in the same way. If Germany moves towards such a policy of prohibition, it could lose its leadership position in Europe. Because I don’t think other European countries will follow the same path.

German politics awaits a post-Trump US

Q: What will German foreign policy be like in the new era? Relations with the US and Germany’s role within Europe are among the most keenly anticipated and debated topics.

A: German foreign policy is still in an impasse, and the new government doesn’t have much time to decide what to do. With Merz, the world not only gains a new German chancellor, but Europe also gains a new leader. Although this may seem like a somewhat arrogant approach from Germany’s perspective, it is perceived and expressed similarly in other European countries. Hopes are pinned on Germany. To put it simply, steps such as the European Union’s future militarization plans, internal reforms, and gradual disengagement from America can only happen under German leadership.

The UK is no longer in the European Union and does not have the massive budget that Germany will have if it abandons its debt brake [a fiscal rule limiting structural government deficits] in the coming years. France, on the other hand, is in economic decline. Therefore, the burden of European leadership rests on Germany’s shoulders, and Europe must now redefine its own direction. This is now Merz’s responsibility. The real question is: To what extent will he and his new team be able to achieve this? Personally, I have my doubts, but objectively speaking, it is clear that Merz needs to set a direction in three fundamental areas.

The first goal is to completely redefine Germany’s relationship with America. However, this is not as easy as it sounds. For decades, Germany focused more on transatlantic thought—that is, an America-centric approach—than on Europe. Breaking away from America in cultural, civilizational, military, and economic contexts is almost impossible. However, if Europe wants to establish a more autonomous structure and realize the currently targeted vision of becoming a great power, it must do so. Meaning, Europe should become an independent great power alongside America, not subordinate to it. But this will not be easy, as resources may not be sufficient for this goal.

Ideologically, Germany is not ready for this either. When talking about reshaping the transatlantic relationship, it is necessary to emphasize this fact: Germany neither wants to nor can it distance itself from America. Because at the level of civilization, culture, politics, military and security policies—and even historically—it is completely intertwined with America. A large part of the elites in Germany were educated in America; they studied at American universities. Therefore, the prevailing approach in German politics is the expectation that Trump will fail within two years, Democrats will gain a majority in Congress, then two years later Trump will lose power, and a young Biden or a new Obama-like Democratic leader will replace him. This leader will then continue the transatlantic relationship that has existed since 1945. In fact, Germany’s hope and strategy is to invest in this scenario.

That’s why I say Germany’s strategy is contradictory: on the one hand, it aims to be more autonomous, but on the other, it is psychologically unprepared for it. Germany is still waiting, hoping to endure for another two years for Trump to leave the stage, and then hoping everything will return to how it was. Because Germany’s desire is to return to the old “normal,” the old status quo. In reality, Germany is not at all ready to assume a leadership role in Europe. Indeed, the main question is: Will Europe accept this new leadership claim by Germany under Merz? I am quite skeptical about this. The German or European elites have a desire for European leadership under Merz, but this desire may not be realistic.

The second major problem is Russia. Decisive decisions need to be made on this issue now, but the decisions currently being made are heading in completely the wrong direction. Everything is moving towards the possibility of a war with Russia. Here too, Germans and Europeans are largely living in a fantasy world. They believe they have always won for the last 35 years, that Europe is still strong, and that they can defeat Russia. However, I approach this with skepticism. Because Russia is still a great power and is on its way to becoming a great power again. In my opinion, Germany’s policy should not be directed towards such radical militarization, and it should not spend 500 billion euros on defense. Of course, deterrence can be relied upon, that is true. But at the same time—and this is completely lacking—diplomacy must be pursued, one must sit down with Russia at the table, and a compromise must be sought through negotiation. I believe this: A Europe positioned against Russia will never be stable. This should be the fundamental principle. We need a Europe that includes Russia. Constant conflict with Russia further weakens Europe; it divides Europe, just as it did during the Cold War. We need to see this.

The third decisive issue—after the US and Russia—is Germany’s relations with other states, especially with the Global South in general. Germany wants to redefine its foreign policy in this area. However, this will be very difficult as long as Germany only talks about “value-oriented foreign policy” and does not approach the world with a realistic, realpolitik perspective. The Global South, in particular, sides more with Russia than with Europe. At the same time, these countries are striving to form their own power bases and alliances against the West and America. New Eurasian-centered alliances are emerging before our eyes between Russia and China, and Russia and India. Central Asian countries are integrating into Russia’s security pact on the one hand, and China’s “New Silk Road” [Belt and Road Initiative] strategy on the other.

Yes, I believe the German federal government is not in a good position regarding these three main problems, because it has not yet fully grasped these realities. Germans and German politics are still in the euphoria of the victories of the last 35 years, believing that Europe has always won, is morally superior to others, that value-oriented foreign policy must necessarily apply to other countries and continents, and ultimately that America—especially Trump—will be ideologically defeated and everything will return to how it was. But things will not develop this way.

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Interview

EU late in Central Asia initiative, says expert

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The European Union has launched an ambitious initiative targeting Central Asian countries, which have long fostered close military, economic, and political ties with China and Russia.

The EU-Central Asia summit held in Samarkand, Uzbekistan, on April 3-4, between the EU and five Central Asian countries, was the first of its kind and underscored Brussels’ interest in the region. With its “Global Gateway” project, the EU is attempting to create an alternative trade corridor to China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), while its share of direct foreign investment in the region has risen to 40%.

One of the summit’s most significant outcomes was European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen’s pledge of 10 billion euros in investment for the “Middle Corridor” passing through the region. Another issue that made headlines in Türkiye was the decision by member countries of the “Organization of Turkic States” to accredit ambassadors to the Republic of Cyprus, which the UN recognizes as the legitimate government of Cyprus. The joint statement referencing UN resolutions that do not recognize the establishment of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus caused controversy in Türkiye.

EU’s Central Asia move due to resource scarcity

Speaking to Harici, Alexander Rahr, head of the Berlin-based Eurasian Society, said that the EU’s recent move toward Central Asia is driven by the EU’s need for raw materials, raw material producers, and external resources. The German author noted that the EU has very few of the raw materials needed to strengthen its industry and industrial base, and therefore the EU is becoming increasingly dependent on external resources and raw materials.

“The EU has lost Russia, its main supplier and producer of raw materials; natural gas, oil and coal, and other minerals,” Rahr said, reminding that the continent is also in conflict with America, and a long-term trade war is expected between America and Europe, according to a number of experts. According to Rahr, it is therefore dangerous for the EU to rely only on the US or countries very closely linked to the US.

Rahr also stated that the EU is moving away from China. According to him, Brussels foresees a major crisis in China, a possible war with Taiwan one day.

Therefore, according to the German expert, the EU has very few options and is now eyeing Central Asia. These states are not too far from Europe and also contain a large amount of raw materials and minerals that the EU needs. Rahr continued:

“So the issue is clear: the EU needs a strategic partnership with Central Asian countries as a supplement to the lost Russian market and as a solution to problems with China.

The EU’s problem is that the Central Asian countries are very well connected to Russia and the Russian market. Russia’s influence in the region is much greater than that of the EU. The view that the EU will break Central Asian countries away from Russian influence is extremely naive. I think this is far too ambitious for the EU. They are also too late and the EU does not have the political instruments to do this.”

‘Brussels’ policy is disturbing because it focuses on values, not cooperation’

Rahr also emphasized that there are other large, active, hegemonic powers in the region. One of these is China: with its Silk Road strategy, it connects Central Asia, the Caucasus, and Russia partly to Europe and has a great deal of authority, political power, and influence in the region.

Türkiye is also in the region. It is very active in cooperation with Central Asian countries in this field.

Rahr therefore thinks that the EU is “too late” and also points out that the EU has other problems:

“Brussels’ foreign relations and economic policies focus on human rights, liberal values, and feminist foreign policy. All of these play an important role for the EU in building cooperation with countries outside Europe. But this is very disturbing for many countries that are not part of European culture. These countries do not want to be lectured or pressured by the EU. I think this is one of the obstacles to cooperation between the EU and Central Asian countries in the future.”

‘Eurasian countries will not break their ties with Russia just because the EU wants them to’

The German author also said that if Europe tries to encourage Türkiye, Central Asian countries, and even China to get rid of Russia’s influence, to break the ties they have established with Russia for decades, and to force countries such as Türkiye and Kazakhstan to participate in anti-Russia sanctions, he thinks that it is too late in this respect as well.

According to him, these countries, Central Asian countries, especially China, India, that is, “Eurasian countries,” have established a suitable relationship with Russia during these sanction wars. Therefore, he does not expect countries outside the EU to destroy their relations with Russia.

According to him, on the contrary, they benefit from these relations with Russia: “Of course, they also want to establish relations with the EU, why not? The EU is a very attractive market and has money for investment. But these countries also know the limits and political goals of the EU.”

‘Brussels will lose if it tries to break the region’s ties with China and Russia’

Rahr, who admits that trade relations between Germany and Central Asian countries are less important than, for example, these countries’ trade with China, says that China’s Silk Road strategy has developed very rapidly in this region.

Rahr noted that the EU, and especially Germany, can enter the region with European Silk Road strategies and ideas, “They can build special and very important corridors. This is logical and should be supported because a corridor built by Europeans may balance the political power carried by China’s Silk Road strategy,” he said.

Rahr thinks that the EU’s problem is “ideology.” According to him, Brussels will lose if it tries to spoil these countries’ relations with China or Russia:

“In my opinion, the EU will only win if it enters this region with an inclusive approach. Cooperation with all the main actors in the region and the construction of necessary corridors. Asia and Türkiye also benefit from this approach. But this must be a completely inclusive approach and must also combine investment with the globalization of markets, inter-market cooperation, and a common security approach for the region. A new Cold War should not be waged, as is currently the case in Ukraine.”

‘The Cyprus issue has been politically resolved in my opinion’

Finally, touching on the Cyprus issue, Rahr argues that the problem on the island has been politically resolved. “Everyone understands that Cyprus consists of two parts, the north connected to Cyprus and Türkiye,” Rahr claimed.

Rahr, who stated that “morality and international law” are very important for the West and that the issue is not completely resolved according to the Western approach, concludes his words as follows:

“In my opinion, if you look at the issue from a realistic and political point of view, there is a status quo in Cyprus. Many referendums were held on the island and the majority of the Cypriot population accepted the current status quo as it is. It seems impossible to change the real situation in Cyprus.

A realistic view should prevail here as well. You will always find some experts who question the ongoing processes in Cyprus and representatives of a larger international perspective.”

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Interview

The international system through China’s eyes: An in-depth interview with academics in Shanghai, Hangzhou, and Beijing

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In recent days, I had the opportunity to set out from Shanghai—one of China’s most vibrant and intellectually rich cities—and revisit Hangzhou and Beijing. These cities are home to China’s most prestigious universities and provide an ideal setting for gauging the pulse of academic circles. With Donald Trump’s re-election in the United States reigniting trade wars through heightened tariffs, the growing turbulence in the international system, and China’s position in this emerging world order, I engaged in extensive conversations with Chinese academics. Speaking on the condition of anonymity, these scholars offered candid insights into China’s foreign policy and the global balance of power. The questions are mine, while the responses come directly from these academics.

From Shanghai to Beijing: China’s academic community speaks

China’s role in the international system has been a frequent topic of debate in both the West and the East in recent years. The escalating trade wars spurred by Trump’s tariffs and a world order shaken by conflicts like Ukraine-Russia and Palestine-Israel have once again placed China under the global spotlight. During my discussions with leading academics from universities in Shanghai, Hangzhou, and Beijing, I sought to understand how China views this chaotic landscape and where it positions itself within it.

‘China keeps its distance from conflicts, but it’s a strategic choice’

The first striking aspect of China’s foreign policy is its cautious stance toward conflicts beyond its borders. According to the academics, China justifies this approach with its principles of “non-interference in other countries’ internal affairs” and “non-involvement in disputes between third parties.” However, I posed a pointed question: “Isn’t the root cause of these wars the power vacuum in the international system? If the U.S. were as strong as it once was, would conflicts like Russia-Ukraine or Palestine-Israel be as widespread? Doesn’t China bear some responsibility for the shift from a unipolar to a multipolar world order? If so, how logical is it for China, as a partial architect of this turbulence, to stand on the sidelines?”

One academic responded decisively: “Yes, it benefits China. The U.S. is no longer as powerful as it once was and is steadily weakening. Constantly engaged in wars, the U.S. is losing both prestige in the international community and economic ground. This situation works against the U.S. and in China’s favor.” I countered with an objection: “But doesn’t it seem like China is losing ground too? Russia and Iran paid heavy prices in Syria over the years, yet China couldn’t even economically support Syria’s reconstruction. Had it done so, might the Assad regime have survived? With Russia tied up in Ukraine and Iran clashing with Israel, Assad was left unsupported and fell. Moreover, groups like the Turkistan Islamic Party have gained strength in Syria and may soon have the capacity to establish a state. Can anyone guarantee that these groups won’t one day target China’s Xinjiang region?”

The academic acknowledged my concern: “Yes, what you say is partly true. Assad had lost the support of his people, and a leader who loses that support will inevitably fall, one way or another. But for China, the real threat isn’t the jihadist groups themselves—it’s the powers backing them. If China is ever forced to fight—and that would truly be a last resort—it would confront not the terrorist organizations, but the forces behind them. China doesn’t approve of Russia’s approach in Ukraine and is pursuing a different path.”

‘Russia made a mistake, China doesn’t favor proxy wars’

Curious about this “different path,” I pressed further: “What do you mean?” The academic’s response was striking: “Russia, with the largest landmass in the world, claimed its goal in Ukraine was to counter groups attempting ethnic cleansing of Russians—which was a legitimate concern. But it did what it swore it wouldn’t: it annexed the territory of a sovereign state. China, on the other hand, hasn’t launched a military operation even in Taiwan, which is internationally recognized as part of our territory. That’s because the people of Taiwan are our people; we seek peaceful reunification, and it will happen eventually. If an operation over Taiwan occurs, it won’t be between China and the island—it will be between China and the powers that support it behind.  China doesn’t engage in proxy wars.”

This response hinted at a red line in China’s approach to conflicts. “So, does that mean China will ignore global conflicts until they reach its borders?” I asked. The academic clarified: “No, of course we’ll raise our voice. We’ll stand against imperialism and with the oppressed. But we won’t be drawn into direct conflict as the U.S. wants. We do not want to jump into the trap that set by the U.S..We’re not ready for that now, but we’re preparing. Look at history: Britain won both world wars but lost all its strength. The U.S., entering both wars late, emerged fresh and energetic, securing victory and becoming the architect of the new world order. China is gathering its energy and strength today. Meanwhile, the U.S. is repeating Britain’s mistake—constantly fighting and wearing itself out.”

‘Waiting for the right moment is China’s strategy’

But isn’t there a limit to this “energy-gathering” strategy? “What happens if you lose all strategic points to the U.S. in the meantime?” I asked. The academic offered a historical perspective: “As Chinese, we, like the Turks, prefer to move forward with historical references. During international crises, we focus on resolving our internal issues and border disputes—it’s a form of preparation for the larger battle. Take the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, for example. While the world was fixated on the U.S. and the Soviet Union, we settled our issue with India in one month. No one even noticed. Of course, no Chinese can figure out why the India launched a war with China first. Similarly, in 1979, amidst the Iranian Revolution, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the Second Oil Crisis, we are forced to start the Counterattack in Self-Defense on the Sino-Vietnamese Border, we entered Vietnam, achieved our goals swiftly, and withdrew. Timing is important for China.”

In short, while its adversaries fight, China builds its strength, preparing to defend itself when the moment is right. So when might that moment come? “At what point would China shift from rhetoric to action?” I asked. The answer was clear: “Maybe Iran, or maybe the direct attack from U.S.. Iran is so important for the safety of Central Asia and China. We oppose intervention in a sovereign state. Just as the U.S. supported Ukraine against Russia, we would support Iran anyway.”

‘Until 2030, a period of conflict and cooperation’

The academics also shared a long-term vision for China’s relationship with the U.S. “Until 2030, China will adopt a strategy of engaging the U.S. without entering direct conflict,” they said. They describe this period as one of “conflict and cooperation”, but maybe the most intense and dangerous period compared with the next 10-20 years. The reasoning lies in China’s domestic priorities: “Our western provinces are still underdeveloped. Until China completes its overall development, it won’t risk a direct confrontation. Militarily, we don’t want to be part of a conflict, nor do we think we’re ready for one. But after 2030, the gap between China and the U.S. will be reduced to a large degree and the balance will be in China’s favor. By then, we believe the U.S. won’t dare risk a direct conflict either. If they do venture into such ‘madness,’ China will be ready.”

‘China won’t kneel to Trump’s tariffs’

When the topic turned to Trump’s tariffs, the academic was resolute: “We’ll see it through to the end. In 2018, we didn’t immediately retaliate to the U.S.’s tariffs on China, but things are different now. We didn’t start this trade war, and we won’t bow to the U.S.”

Russia-U.S. agreement and new alliances

I also asked about the possibility of a Russia-U.S. deal: “It was said that China and Russia’s partnership had no limits—does that still hold?” The academic replied: “But there is a bottom line for the relations. China has never seen Russia as an enemy. We understand the security rationale behind its intervention in Ukraine, but we’ve always supported a sovereign state’s territorial integrity. If Russia strikes a deal with the U.S., that’s their choice. According to the official documents, China has no allies. The only ally China has maybe the North Korea because of the Korean War.”

Finally, I touched on recent developments: “Last month, Russia blamed European states for world wars, avoiding mention of the U.S. Trump suggests he could reach an agreement with Russia. Meanwhile, tariffs seem to be bringing China and Europe closer. Just last week, EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen visited China, emphasizing cooperation. Could we see a China-EU alliance pitted against a U.S.-Russia bloc in the near future?” The academic didn’t rule it out: “There are no eternal friendships or enmities. It’s possible. And with potential land and rail links between China and the EU, the strategic importance of Central Asia and Turkey grows. Turkey’s geopolitical position and ties with Central Asia could make it a key partner for China.”

Conclusion: China’s strategic patience and future plans

This interview with Chinese academics reveals Beijing’s patient, strategic, and long-term approach to the turbulence in the international system. By steering clear of conflicts and building its strength, China aims to avoid direct confrontation until 2030, even 2035, 2049 while completing its development. The academics predict that, post-2030, China’s advantage over the U.S. will grow, preparing it for any potential conflict. A critical key country like Iran or a strategic issue like Taiwan could prompt China to act sooner. In the face of Trump’s trade wars, China stands firm: it won’t back down. Meanwhile, emerging partnerships like Russia-U.S. and China-EU, potentially involving Turkey, hint at a global realignment. Time will tell what role China ultimately plays in this chaotic world.

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