Amir Mohammad Ramin, Afghanistan’s ambassador to Ankara, spoke to Harici. Assessing the economic, social, security and political problems in Afghanistan, Ambassador Ramin pointed to the role of the United States, which “came to the country without notice” and then left without any commitment to the economy, stability and security.

Ambassador Amir Mohammad Ramin answered our questions on the current situation in Afghanistan, relations with regional countries, security issues, recognition negotiations and foreign investment.

The US withdrew from Afghanistan, but left a big economic crisis behind and at the same time, hunger, poverty, epidemic, diseases, and many other problems remain. How do you think Afghanistan will recover? 

Unfortunately, contrary to the expectations of the general public and the people in Afghanistan, the United States came to Afghanistan without any prior notice through, of course, a UN Security Council Resolution, but also left Afghanistan very abruptly without any sort of commitment for Afghanistan’s economic stability, future stability and development. In Afghanistan, the economic situation has died. People are in a difficult situation. And the reason is that we have the development situation in post-August 2021. The new de-facto authority has not been recognized. And there are no formal economic relations with Afghanistan right now. And in certain ways, Afghanistan remains under sanctions. For example, the SWIFT doesn’t work in Afghanistan. So for all these reasons, Afghanistan is going through a very difficult time. There’s no doubt. When it comes to the general public’s rights, human rights, it is a very dire situation. So what can be done that the situation in Afghanistan can get better? The best thing would be to look at this from two perspectives. One, domestic perspective. Domestic perspective, I think the de-facto authorities need to open up, engage with the public, try to create a rule-based system, try to create a constitution, try to define the rules, regulations and the rights of the people. Unless peoples are given their important rights and unless people are listened to, it will not be difficult to address the situation in Afghanistan. The issue of domestic legitimacy is very important. And that will only happen through a kind of mutual interaction and understanding between the people and these de-facto authorities. The second thing is that once domestic legitimacy is addressed, it comes to regional and international legitimacy. And that, I’m sure, will naturally come once the issue of Afghanistan internally happens. But given the dire situation in Afghanistan right now, it is very important that we do not forget the 35 million or 40 million people, we need to get to their humanitarian needs. And that’s why I continue to encourage all international actors to continue to address the humanitarian needs of people in Afghanistan. In this regard, Türkiye is doing well. I’m very grateful to the humanitarian assistance that Türkiye is sending to Afghanistan right now. More than 60 organizations are active in Afghanistan. Most of them are involved in two areas, humanitarian assistance as well as education, which both are very important. But in the short term, humanitarian assistance, in the long term, the issue of education are vital because education is a long-term investment for Afghanistan. So those are my views on how the situation could get better and go forward.

The US confiscated Afghanistan’s money, so to speak. It is obvious that Afghanistan needs this money very much right now. Will there be an international initiative regarding this? How do you evaluate this incident?

The continues to remain frozen. But my understanding is that there are ways to make sure that the money can get to the people. And their needs can be addressed. There has to be certain ways to be used. I myself am not directly involved in this, because I know that some of our diplomatic missions in New York and Geneva, they are following these developments. But I personally do not follow. But it is my wish that if there will be a way to make sure that the needs of the people are addressed to the money, it will be very good. But the long term and actual solution will be to make sure that the situation in Afghanistan gets better. It gets changed. 

Let’s talk about the recognition efforts of the Taliban government. Iran, Russia, China and Pakistan, they have good relations with these neighbors. But it doesn’t seem that there will be as an official recognition of Taliban government. Do you have information, what is the calendar of Taliban government about recognition? Which clues do you get from other governments? 

So, my understanding is that recognition is legitimacy, international legitimacy. So, unless the issue of domestic legitimacy is addressed, -and it’s in this 21st century, governments has to have the support and backing of the people- and there has to be some principles on how a government indicates that it has the backing of the people; you cannot simply say that I have the support of the people without any indicators. So, there has to be a way. 

What is that way for Afghanistan?

So, the best thing would be to make sure that there is a framework in which there is some degree of public participation regarding the issue of domestic legitimacy. Unless that is not addressed, it will be difficult to see that international recognition will happen anytime soon. At the same time, I don’t think it will happen formally or officially anytime soon. Unles some very substantial issues are addressed such as the issue of the Afghanistan people’s rights, women’s rights and the issue of women’s access to education, women’s participation in the workforce, women’s participation in the society. Unless these issues are addressed, there will be, I think, no immediate solution to the issue of recognition, in my opinion. So, we don’t have a timeline for it.

Can you comment on Russia’s initiative that Russia announced they will invite Taliban government to Islamic summit in Kazan?  What will that bring? What is Russia’s aim and what will that bring to Taliban government? 

I think, it’s, what will happen is that it is sort of something that has happened over the past few years. There has been participation in various events, but it has not led to anything substantial or any major breakthroughs. For example, in 2022, in March, the Taliban delegation came and participated in the Antalya Diplomacy Forum. But nothing substantial came out of it. So, Kazan and the participation in the Islamic World Conference will only be a participation. I don’t think it will bring anything other than participation. 

But what Russia wants to do is to put a stance for Taliban. Is it true?

So, in my understanding, Russia has security concerns about Afghanistan, specifically when it comes to Daesh, because recently there was a Daesh-Khorasan attack in Russia. So, for Russia, as well as other neighboring countries, such as, although Russia is not a neighboring country, but it is impacted by the situation. For Iran, for Pakistan, I think for them is to see how they can manage the situation to make sure that it does not get much more difficult or worse. For example, imagine if the security situation gets bad or worse in Afghanistan, these neighboring countries and regional countries, including Türkiye, will be the first to be impacted. And that’s why they maintain some degree of engagement to make sure that the situation is maintained. So, it will be a continuation of the status-quo. It will not be a major breakthrough.

What about the foreign investments into Afghanistan? China and Russia have several projects. There is a railway project between Russia and Afghanistan, which is also involving some Turkish companies. What do we know about these projects? Can you just enlighten us on that? 

So, yes, the Chinese have made investments. Iran has made some investments in Afghanistan. Russia has made some investments. Turkish companies have invested in certain sectors in Afghanistan. My understanding is that there are about 11 different companies who have invested in Afghanistan, Turkish companies. Construction, but also hydropower, solar power… So, these are some of the sectors that they have invested. The Russians and Chinese are interested in mines. They have also invested in the oil. The Iranians have also had some investment in mines. The Russians would like to see what they can do. They don’t have any major investments yet. 

Does Russia not have any major investments? 

Any major investments, no, but right now the investment that they have made on the railway is one of the first ones. It is signed. And they will gradually start to construct. This will be the railway connectivity from Afghanistan to Iran, western Afghanistan, Herat province. And this could also potentially in the future connect Afghanistan to Türkiye. Because it could potentially come all the way to Türkiye. 

How does it connect Russia and Afghanistan? 

Right now, the other parts to connect all the way to Russia has not started. Because this is only the part that connects Afghanistan to Iran. In the future, once the situation is better, then of course this will go all the way to the two other countries that it will connect to Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. And then through Uzbekistan and Tajikistan it will potentially go all the way to both China and Russia. But that is not in an immediate plan. 

What is the calendar? 

Usually it’s quite difficult to talk about calendars in Afghanistan because the railway project that we are now discussing, this was discussed about 15 years ago. And because of the security incidents, it has always been delayed. Depending on the resources, investment and commitment by the companies and the security situation overall, I think, if the situation will be okay, the investment proceeds, the commitments for the investment proceeds, my understanding is that in the next five years there will be connectivity between Uzbekistan, Pakistan via Afghanistan, as well as way to Iran. And this will help to connect other countries such as Russia, China and India.

You have security problems regarding migrants in Pakistan? So, how do you evaluate this situation? And regarding the security of Afghanistan, is it actually very meaningful for the security of the whole region? This is what Ambassador Husrav Noziri, the Secretary General of Economic Cooperation Organization told me. He underlines that Afghanistan must be secure for the rest of the region to be secure. How will Afghanistan deal with these security problems? 

So, some part of the security problem is in Afghanistan. Another part is also regional, especially in Pakistan. In Pakistan they have ungoverned areas, like in Waziristan, federally administrative areas. The Pakistani army is not in full control of those areas. And that’s why those areas are now inside the Pakistani soil and territory has turned into a safe haven for some of the groups, including the TTP as well as the Daesh. I think also there are some areas in neighboring Iran that’s also the same. On April 4th, we had a terrorist attack in Iran by Jaysh al-Adl, which is called the Troops of Justice. So, there are some areas that are not strictly controlled by the three countries in the border areas and regions of the three countries. My understanding is that it will require close cooperation by the countries to make sure that the ungoverned areas are reduced. And these ungoverned areas are also inside Pakistan, because this is a very mountainous area like Waziristan and other places. But if the security situation in Afghanistan improves, it will have impacts on neighboring countries. If the security situation in neighboring countries such as Pakistan, improves, it will have an impact on the security situation in Afghanistan.

You were appointed as Ambassador to Ankara by the previous government. Have you been working with Taliban government?

We have 35 million citizens in Afghanistan. We need to help them. We need to be responsible for them. We do consular works, work for economic development and humanitarian assistance. Because of this, we work with the Taliban. I work for Afghanistan. Turkish mission in Kabul also work for people in Afghanistan very actively. Türkiye’s consulate is in Mazar-i-Sherif also works actively.

Do you have any diplomats appointed by the Taliban government in the Embassy?

We have two diplomats. One of them works in the field of law. For example, he works with the prisons and the law officers regarding the legal issues of Afghan citizens. The second one works in the economic field. He is focused on investments and humanitarian assistance. 

Decree of the first Turkish Ambassador appointed to Afghanistan, signed by Atatürk

How is the relation between Turkish government and Taliban government? How do you perceive a number of meetings held between two sides?

Türkiye works very pragmatically with Afghanistan. Because Türkiye sees the things like this: “I want to help them. I want to support them. At the same time, I want to improve the situation in Afghanistan. Because if the situation in Afghanistan improves, it will be a problem for Türkiye.” There is a migrant problem in Türkiye. If the situation in Afghanistan goes worse, it will be a serious problem for Türkiye. At the same time, the stability of the region is directly affected by Türkiye. Years ago, Türkiye’s economy was very good. There were different factors, of course, but main thing was that firstly, Syria, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan were stable. Because Türkiye was directly affected positively by the stability of the region. But now there is an economic crisis because there is still a crisis in Afghanistan, there is a crisis in Pakistan, there is a crisis in Syria, there is a crisis in Iraq, there is a crisis in Libya. This have directly affected Türkiye. 

Do you say Türkiye experiences economic difficulties mainly because of migrants?

Not only the migrants. There are many Turkish companies that work in Afghanistan. They got big projects from NATO, the US and Afghanistan. They got projects, which were equal to billions of dollars. Türkiye is directly affected in a good way by the good economic situation in Afghanistan previously. Because of this, Türkiye is working very positively, very pragmatically in this region. Because of this, some people in Türkiye say, -and this message comes from our citizens sometimes – Türkiye needs to stop these relations. I think this is not very logical and at the same time it is of no use. Because it can cause the situation get worse. Therefore, I think Türkiye’s presence in Afghanistan is very important. Afghanistan can change the situation with diplomatic, political, and assistance coming from Türkiye. Türkiye is doing very good things in this region.

Toivo Klaar, the European Union’s (EU) Special Representative for the South Caucasus and the Crisis in Georgia, assessed Tbilisi’s relations with Brussels and the EU accession process: “These accession negotiations will last for many years. Georgia’s accession is not on the agenda tomorrow or the next day. This is a long-term process.”

Georgia applied for EU membership in March 2022 and was granted candidate status in December 2023, on the understanding that Georgia takes the relevant steps set out in the European Commission recommendation of November 2023.

So how will Georgia’s EU accession process work? What are the challenges ahead? Where are relations with Russia in this process? We spoke to Toivo Klaar, EU Special Representative for the South Caucasus and the Crisis in Georgia.

Georgia did not impose any sanctions on Russia regarding the Ukraine crisis. What do you think Georgia’s view of Russia as a country that went to war in 2008 and now not sanctioning?

Well, we, of course, are in constant contact, in constant discussion with Georgia. We have a very close relationship with Georgia. And for our point of view, the important thing is that we do not see a circumvention of sanctions. That is, that Georgia is not a conduit for large-scale circumvention of sanctions. And this is important for the EU. We believe that the sanctions are essential. And we are looking to our partners to make sure that their territories cannot be used for circumvention of sanctions. And in that regard, I think we have a good working relationship with Georgia.

Tbilisi is committed to the EU accession process now. So, what are the obstacles and challenges? How do you assess Brussels’ attitude towards Georgia given that it took a lot of time to reach that point?

Well, in the end, the fact that we did agree that Georgia and we did announce that Georgia can become a candidate country and the member states decided so, is only the beginning of a process. In the end, it is down to each applicant country to, then, prove that they fulfill the criteria, first of all, to start accession negotiations and then, of course, to actually finish accession negotiations. So, in that sense, we have opened the door. Now it is up to Georgia to step into the entrance way and then to start working towards actually being ready for membership.

What are those challenges?

I think there’s a lot of challenges. And I think, well, first of all, it is important to fulfill the criteria to start to open the accession negotiations. And then the question is then to start fulfilling all the criteria required for membership. And that’s not an easy process. So, all candidate countries have had a fairly hard time in preparing for membership. And this is no different for Georgia. Therefore, it will be incumbent on the Georgian authorities to take this seriously and to recognize that it is now really for the Georgian authorities to prove that Georgia is ready to proceed first to the next phase and then to actually succeed in the accession negotiations.

Newly appointed Prime Minister Irakli Kobakhidze said that further rapprochement with China is one of his government’s priorities. How does Georgia benefit from a rapprochement with China, according to you, while walking this road towards the EU?

Well, I think that every country has, of course, a right to be able to develop relations with third countries. And the same goes for Georgia. The question is that when it comes to alignment of foreign policy, that is obviously something that we’re looking for from a candidate country that we believe it is important that in the end. The EU and its member states talk with one voice and have a similar approach to third countries and to issues in world politics. And so, in that regard, I think, it is perfectly all right for Georgia to develop a relationship with China, which is all the EU member states have relationships with China. But the important thing is that we expect that the overall Georgian foreign policy approach will be more and more harmonized with that of the EU at large.

Tbilisi also sees economic cooperation with Russia as “highly beneficial”. How would you interpret the West’s reactions to Georgia on this issue?

The important thing again is that there is no circumvention of sanctions. That in that sense, there is no situation where a third country provides or allows the transit of goods or provides the supply of goods that we believe should not be supplied to Russia because of its war with Ukraine. And in that context, again, I think it is important that we see that Georgia does make sure that no sanctioned circumvention is taking place in the context of trade with Russia.

Do you think this is going to be a criteria for the EU to consider Georgia’s membership?

Well, again, first of all, Georgian membership is not on the agenda tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. This is a long-term process. It’s the process of accession. First of all, there has to be a decision to open the accession negotiations. And secondly, those accession negotiations are going to take many years. So, in that regard, I think it is purely theoretical to start talking about whether something is somehow a condition or not for actually joining. But I mean, something specific, in general terms, of course, what we do expect, again, what I mentioned before, is that a candidate country does ensure that its foreign policy becomes more and more harmonized with that of the European Union.

Under what conditions do you think it’s possible to unite with Abkhazia and South Ossetia? Could you tell us about the recent steps taken to resolve this issue? What is your perspective?

Well, I don’t think that this is an easy process. I think the key actor in this regard is, of course, Russia. And Russia should abide by the six-point agreement of 2008, where it committed itself to withdrawing its troops to the positions that were held prior to the conflict with Georgia. So, if Russia does that, if Russia also withdraws its recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and actually starts playing a constructive role in helping Georgians, Abkhaz and South Ossetians to overcome their conflict, then, I believe, it is possible to resolve this. As long as Russia remains obstructionist and the way it is right now, not keeping its troops in Abkhazia, South Ossetia and insisting on not fulfilling its obligations under the six-point agreement. As long as that’s the case, it will be difficult to actually resolve those conflicts. Russia is a major hindrance in this regard.

There’s a judgment that Georgian society is caught between the Soviet culture, the Soviet heritage and Western influence. As a part of the Western alliance like EU and also being an observer at the same time would you agree with that judgment? Do you think is there such polarization in the country among people?

Well, I think we see that an overwhelming majority of Georgians want to join the European Union. Obviously, there will be cultural differences and different views in this context in the context of this process. But I believe that this is a process of harmonization that will last for some time but that will ultimately end with coming closer and with also society accepting and learning to value the norms that the European Union is living by. And that is, I think, also an important aspect for the Georgian government to ensure and to promote that European values and understandings are promoted in Georgian society. And I think that probably more can be done in this regard also as far as pluralism, as far as really encouraging divergent views and tolerance for minorities is concerned. I think that’s a very important aspect of European culture. And I think there is still some work to be done in Georgia.